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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    To be fair the cost of building a narrow gauge loco is far far cheaper than a standard gauge so that doesn't really have anything to do with the point I was making. Ok, so breaking down your point about the P2. You are correct in saying it is doing incredibly well, and isn't a BR loco, but it has something that none of the other new builds have as of yet, the ability to show it can achieve what it says it wants to. Look at the other P2 project to see the difference.

    Taking info from the charity commission website here is a breakdown of the amount each project has raised in its last financial year. We will start with the big 4/BR type ones then a list of pre grouping ones.

    Clan £66,058
    82045 £151,711
    B17 spirit of Sandringham. £49,906
    LMS patriot £348,431 (and I know the next update will say £427,000 and the one for this current year will hopefully top £550,000)
    Grange £116,028
    Doncaster P2 £10,835
    (I don't know where to find the info for the GWsociety projects, county, night owl,)

    The pre grouping ones.
    F5 £13,245
    LNWR George the fifth £29,445
    GCR 567 £13,394.
    Brighton Atlantic £99,000
    (Unsure where to find the G5s income)

    From this quick assessment it would seem that the incomes from the BR classes (not trying to say they are better or more worthy as I too love the look of many pre grouping locos, just that it's more difficult to fundraise for pre grouping) are much larger that the ones not remembered. So when I jokingly posted about a LMS 2P (I would however build one if I won the euro millions , but I never buy a ticket so that isn't going to happen) and someone said it would be better to build a Scottish 4-4-0 as they are nicer, you would probably find that it would be easier to fundraise for a LMS 2P than the Scottish loco. (Please remember this is all hypothetical)

    And maybe I'm sounding slightly like Paul Hitch here but there isn't much point doing a project that isn't going to be funded
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Mr Hitch wouldn't go down the road of new builds, they're too much W.I.B.N!
     
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  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    For the Atlantic, you need to look into the accounts for the Bluebell Railway Trust, from which you can see that for 2016 (the most recent set of accounts available), £99,953 was raised during the year.

    I’m not sure I quite understand your distinction into “BR” and “non-BR” locos. You seem to include LMS, GWR and LNER locos in the “BR” list - fair enough if they ran during the BR era, but if that is the criterion, so did several of the “pre-grouping” list.

    Tom
     
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  4. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison Member

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    It's quite interesting to see this information, but I'm reminded of that quote of (was it Disraeli or Gladstone?) about statistics. The Darlington P2 is doing incredibly well, but their own website declares the cost of the completed locomotive to be in the region of £5 million. Contrast that with GCR 567 (Disclaimer: I'm a supporter of this particular project) with an anticipated price tag of around 1/10 of that.

    Not all projects are equal, some are starting completely from scratch, some are using new-old components, they each have their own individual hurdles to overcome. Money of course does come into the equation but taking finances as the sole arbeiter of the likelihood of success is necessarily going to skew the results somewhat. For example; 567 might only have raised a comparatively modest sum FY2016-17 but that doesn't alter the fact that within 18 months to 2 years the expectation is to have the loco built up to the running plate (frames, cylinders, motion, leading bogie etc etc etc).
     
  5. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    As I recall and maybe someone with better Ffestiniog connections can confirm. Taliesin was 250 people giving £10 per month for 12 years, which is £360,000 at 1988 prices. I am assuming some people gave more so the figure maybe higher but that was the minimum that they needed when it was pitched as a project. I don’t know what inflation would do to those costs from 30 years ago.
     
  6. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    That's fair enough. I only did this quickly between making tea. Ok. So I suppose it should be big 4 plus BR Vs pre grouping. And actually you are right the Atlantic would go under the tag of pre grouping.
     
  7. Gav106

    Gav106 Well-Known Member

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    Also a good point. You are right that costs differ from project to project and the % difference does make a difference. So the GCR 567 as you say doesn't need to raise anywhere near the amount the P2 does. And fantastic news if you can manage to have that completed in 18months to 2 years. Without knowing the most up-to-date income it can be a bit of a guessing game but say your income is £50,000 in that time will that cover all the costs to achieve your goal? Or do you already have the cylinders, motion, and frames already and the next 18 months is assembly of them?
     
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  8. J Rob't Harrison

    J Rob't Harrison Member

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    I'm not sure how far the £50,000 would go, however we do have the cylinder block (new-old stock that would originally have been a spare for an RS&H 0-6-0), various elements of the motion either machined new by ourselves or bought again as new-old stock, the frames are cut and are currently being machined. Broadly speaking we have a lot of the necessary material to build the loco up to running plate level, but not all of that material is yet ready to be built into the locomotive. The use of new-old stock components has both advantages and drawbacks; whilst we don't need to think about having a cylinder block drawn, moulded and cast, the cylinder block we will be using is slightly larger than the original would have been (requiring tweaks to the frames) and needs cleaning out around the valves (which means the two half-castings will need to be separated, worked upon, and then bolted back together).

    From the information presented at the AGM back in November, at the moment the funding level is adequate to keep the build on track. Once we start looking at other big-ticket items like the boiler, the requirement for money will increase correspondingly but at the same time we will by then have a large chunk of the engine built and the belief is that more supporters will come on board as there is more of the engine to show.

    I think your figures would bear that belief out- it's interesting also how the projects that raised the most money tend to be the projects that are furthest advanced (I'm thinking in particular the Grange, the Patriot and 82045). I do think that there is something in the idea that the more worked-up metal a project can show, the more willing people are to financially support it, as there must come a tipping point where in public perception a new build transitions from looking a risky proposition to looking as though it cannot possibly fail.
     
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  9. Bertie Lissie

    Bertie Lissie New Member

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    A good question Mr Foxy. Much of the charm of Gazelle comes from it's long association with the bucolic S & M. I imagine the conversion to an 0-4-2 was to increase tractive effort and adhesion (the use of the expression 'tractive effort' is quite disproportionate to the machine itself!). Would the large wheeled 'speeder' version cope with any significant gradients and / or be able to pull a trailer, or indeed the skin off a rice pudding?
     
  10. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    If you don't want to raise the Devil don't summon him!

    Actually you couldn't be more wrong. Provided the various problems of the originals have been ironed out, the P2s would be big enough to haul a paying load on the main line and keep it out of the way of scheduled services. F5, G5 and 3MT are of a sensible size and type for tourist railway use. No comment as to the rest.

    PH
     
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  11. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    Qui tacet consentit perchance? :p
     
  12. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot to Gav106 for setting up this information! :) Interesting to read. I just wonder if these amounts actually are money in the bank itself,or with a combination of pledges?
    I know that The LMS patriot project are quite exceptional in this case, now having ,since it launched nearbay £500,000(!) as money in the bank NOT pledges.

    But, I assume without pledges and loans, it would take 100 year for a project to be finalize, so it absolutely comprehensible.
    One thing is for sure, it`s exciting times for all (new build) steam fans!:) Thinking of that we have this unique opportunity to follow the building of a real steam locomotive from scratch! Who could imagine that in 1968?!

    kind regards
    Knut
     
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  13. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    As I said "nocomment"

    PH
     
  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Quite when this "tipping point" is reached is an interesting one. The evidence from A1SLT suggests that establishing early the credibility of a proposal is rather more staightforward if your group already has a successful newbuild storming the rails!

    Taking the 6MT "Hengist" project, the current team have made massive inroads into the chassis and much CAD work is completed. Are views still skewed by early issues connected with the false start which lead to scrapping of the 1st (or 3rd ..... depending on where you're counting from!) set of frames? All available evidence points to past woes being well and truly committed to history, yet the project seems to still need to reach that "tipping point". Thankfully, the folks now steering this one look to be building towards that very nicely.

    By way of contrast, I've a sneaking suspicion that the 3MT project (the mogul, not the prarie) may well languish until "Hengist" is bordering on completion as, with the best will in the world, it's difficult to see how any newbuild can engender confidence when even early stage updates are all but absent. If a 3MT is ever to exist again, it will need a project group with credibility. My own feeling is that this is likely to remain the case unless it gets picked up by a more dynamic leadership ..... and no prizes for guessing where (if anywhere) I suspect that's most likely to come from.
     
  15. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    I think the GC 4-4-0 and the George V are also reasonable sized for heritage railway use.
     
  16. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Size yes. Driving wheel dimensions and adhesive weight less so.

    PH
     
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  17. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I thought you said "no comment"? ;)

    Anyway, it's their money and time and it probably isn't being taken away from any other heritage aspect of steam railways, so on the basis that it either exists or it doesn't, with nothing else losing out if it doesn't, I'm very glad they do exist.
     
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  18. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I was quoted. As I have said umpteen times "If you don't want to hear from the genie, don't rub the lamp".

    This argument ab out scheme A not taking money from scheme B is incapable of being proved. It may or may not,

    PH
     
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  19. hyboy

    hyboy New Member

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    I hope I don't upset too many by indulging in a little W.I.B.N fantasy. As we currently have Thornbury Castle under overhaul at long last and 4709 well under construction , what chance of a little creative interplay between these fantastic projects? ( Probable answer "None whatsoever" but this is a W.I.B.N. ..) How about the Castle using a No.1 boiler to help make a Star ? 4709 using the Castle boiler to make a more" production" 47xx ? I am quite sure that the proud owner of Thornbury would have no wish to do this , it is his right to do what he wishes but it might be the only chance to see a Star in steam . The 4709 project are intending to use a No.1 boiler I believe.
    Some would no doubt think this is W.I.B.H. (Horrific) but I am just interested in any thoughts by N.P. regulars . January is a very long month and idle speculation can be fun!
     
  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Trouble is a late Castle like Thornbury wouldn't make that great a Star. New frames, cylinders, it all adds up. Also AIUI the Thornbury boiler is the last surviving 3 row superheat one.

    The GWS has published plans about the smokebox design required to fit the large diameter 4700 boiler, so a Std 1 seems unlikely, although I suppose it would be just possible to hide a Std 1 boiler inside Std 7 sized cladding if it were impossible to fund a complete new one. A Std 8 (castle) boiler would need a whole new barrel and fittings to turn it into a version of the Std 7,so if a Std1 makes more sense than a Std 8 on the whole. However if it hasn't got that huge std 7 boiler - same diameter s as a King boiler- to my mind it's not much of a 47.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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