Replica builds for heritage lines.

You know Paul one thing I don't think I or anyone that I know of has thought to ask you yet, if we were to follow your way and thinking and logic, just what would we do with the big chuffers?

If we were to just purely focus on using the smaller, more economical steam engines on our heritage railways, what do you propose we do with the bigger, and in your view, less ideal locomotives?

It's been pounted out before that simply due to circumstances at the time, be it what folks desired to save at the time as well as what was available in Barry Scrapyard, the heritage railway movement generally more of the big chuffers then the smaller and more practical ones. There are a good deal number of railways out there, that don't have the luxury of choice, so the larger steam engines may be the only option they have if they want to run a good enough service. I'm sure we can all agree being able to run a railway with what you got over not doing so is clearly the better option. Your favourite line the Isle of Wight Steam Railway may have fine small and ideal engines for their railway, but few others are so fortunate.

But ultimately too, say if we did gain a greater abundance of small to medium sized locotmotives, ones that would meet your approval... that still leaves us with the big question Paul. What about the big chuffers?!

What are we to do with them exactly, if they don't meet what railway ideally should have, as you so often argue. Should they be in museum? The NRM struggles to keep all of their collection undercover as it is, and few heirtage railways have the space nor resources to build such facilities for themselves.

We can't just have them kept on the sidings doing nothing either, for that would be an insult to all those who have worked so hard in the past to get them up and running again. So what is the best option for this issue Paul? As you have been drumming this same issue for so long now, I'm geniunely curious just what is that you'd do? Dare I ask... would you have them scrapped! Lord help the Bulleid pacifics... I'm sure you wouldn't do that of course, but if you so prefer medium to small engines Paul, then just what is that should be done to all these 'big chuffers' I can't help but view you as holding them to nothing but contempt sometimes...

 

Where do I start? I don't hold big locomotives "in contempt" but I find some of the arguments justifying their use to be distinctly specious. The honest ones of "we haven't anything else" or "I like big chuffers" are preferable even if the latter costs money to indulge.

Although I am open to correction, I understand 41313, with its excellent boiler, hung around at Barry until the erstwhile Ivatt Trust came along looking for spares for their existing two. It was Dai Woodham who suggested they took the whole machine. Were there other similar scenarios with less happy results? Newbuilds are an opportunity to correct the imbalance of what survived with useful things like the G5, 3MT and so on, rather than increase the big chuffer ranks still further.

PH

 

But you haven't answered JMR100's question of what you would do with the larger locos should an abundance of smaller ones become available. IMO it's a moot point as you're unlikely to be in a position to put your views into practice but it would be interesting to hear your proposals.

 

Dream on.

 

If I may, I like the Brighton 4-6-4 tank. Its a nice loco, a large passenger tank, rated class 4 so looks like it would be a good choice for a heritage line!

 

I'm surprised that a moderator has completely misunderstood the purpose of these discussions.

It's like a chant to aid meditation. By repeating the same thing over and over while emptying one's mind of all conscious thought, it's possible to achieve an enlightened state of peaceful bliss. That's why I'm here. I assumed it was the same for all of us.

 

The absence of any Baltic is a significant gap. So is the absence of anything properly representative of the Glasgow & South Western (there's but one G&SW survivor, an 0-6-0t, stuffed and mounted in Glasgow Transport Museum). The 540 class Baltic belongs on any list of candidates. Ditto the LT&SR (will 'Thundersley' ever steam again?), so the 2100 class could be considered too.

My own favourite Baltic was the Belfast & County Down example. Again, only one of the line's locos (a 4-4-2t) survives, pickled at Cultra. The front end would need some serious thought, as the originals could scarcely be considered the pinnacle of Irish locomotive practice (unless you owned a coal mine!), but if the design issues could be sorted out, with it's 5'-6" drivers it'd be an ideal loco for RPSI mainline jaunts. Irish rail tours look to favour seven carriages and with turntables thinner on the ground on the Emerald Isle than on the big island, a powerful tank loco would be well suited to requirements. Pity the £4,980 price of the originals would need to be multiplied by 250!

...... but if we're really heading off to WIBN territory, why not go the whole hog and recreate Gresley's W1? Or better yet, two .... one 4-cyl compound, complete with Yarrow boiler (surely worth it, if only to see the vehicle acceptance wallahs going into total meltdown!) and the A4+ flavoured rebuild. What's not to like? Did someone say "£5,000,000 price tag"?

 

So what to do with all these large uneconomic engines, But who says they are uneconomic? does it not depend on what the trailing load is , for instance a larger engine may be more expensive to light up, but once up to pressure how much coal is burned on an engine not being pushed to its limits, as opposed to a smaller engine that is ? then add into the factor the maintenance costs, an engine being worked to its limits will be heavier on maintenance and when its turn comes will need more work at next overhaul.
As regards new builds, i'm in favour of the re creating of any engine that has been lost, be it a Brighton Alantic, An A1, P2, down to a BP 2-4-0 if the IOWSR so wish, the limiting factor is always the same though, to ensure you have a good fundraising team behind you and a plan to work to, a date in some cases to keep momentum going. Beachy head will steam, hopefully with in the next few years, its very close now , The P2 also is now taking shape, The patriot, is now looking towards the boiler assembly, so theres a lot to be happy about, and the Austerity conversion is another way forward, not 100 per cent authentic, but another way forward if you have out grown an otherwise usefull type.

 

Were'nt the Belfast & County Down 4-6-4 tanks supposed to be a bit, er rubbish? What was the problem with them?

The LTSR and GSWR ones were both by the same designer, the LTS ones were apparently too heavy to be allowed into Fenchurch Street, which seriously limited their usefulness, and they were delivered shortly after the Midland took the line over. The Midland never seemed to know what to do with them and tried them out, at one stage, on coal trains between Wellingborough and Cricklewood.

 

Too heavy and needed their own coal mine to keep them happy, I think I also remember reading that they actually weren't that powerful either


Keith

 

Whatever their faults, the B&CD locos were the last Baltics in service in these islands, surviving into the 1950's. I had a boogie through the sad tale of their genesis a while back (http://national-preservation.com/threads/private-builders-their-designers.939078/#post-1831650).

Pretty much all the flaws lay with the front end. Whether there's scope to improve the design in this area I'm unsure, but if it could, they'd certainly be worth a second glance. Don't forget "Duke of Gloucester" was considered a lost cause .... until it wasn't!

All the new build talk at Whitehead is of either a W (2-6-0) or a second WT (2-6-4t), both of which were decent designs. The Baltic, AFAIK isn't even on the radar and is just a personal 'what if?' which crosses my mind from time to time

 

Sorry Martin, but these really are "the usual excuses", particularly if the line has only room for five vehicles in the platform. Don't go on what I say, read the accounts of the people who fired 41312 at Swanage about her economy and watch the videos to see how easily she managed five, which is the maximum which can be run round at the terminus. Nowhere near her limit.

PH

 

Since there are no preserved baltic tank engines in the UK (If I`m right?), it could be a very interesting candidate for a new build (in my fantasy).

You never can tell!

Knut

 

Well, any of the Baltics would be fine on a preserved line. I'd like to see either the Furness one or the L&YR one. But if I win Euromillions I'm going to have an L&YR Atlantic built - Hoy version with piston valves. It would have been a Gresley V4 but that's on someone else's radar.

 

The question of platform length is a valid point and would be even if there wasn't a shedload of photographic evidence for WC/BoB locos on one coach trains 'down west' in days of yore! Remember when HK looked absolutely massive when it was just a Terrier and a couple of carriages? Bear in mind that there used to be rumblings that 75027 was ridiculously large for the Bluebell. At the time it arrived, it probably was!

As always, it's horses for courses. The 2MT seems to have won a lot of admirers during it's Swanage stint, but I'm not too sure how it would be received on a heavy Pickering dining service!

 

Howard,
I have said always that the NYMR is one of the relatively few places that can justify something bigger.

Paul H

 

More to the point, how many Baltics were built for service in the UK?

 

But as normal Paul overlooks the extra costs that using a small engine involves, operationally on many lines an Ivatt 2 will be at the top end of its capabilities, and whilst it may well be more than able to pull 4 or 5 mk1's, what if you have a coach party and have to add 2 coaches, that puts the trailing load above the booked limit? you diagram an engine to fit your operational needs.
As regards New builds, i for one would love to go to the bluebell when Beachy head enters service .

 

And it's also one of many places that have trains longer than platforms at some stations.