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Replica builds for heritage lines.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 50044 Exeter, Apr 25, 2016.

  1. Bill Drewett

    Bill Drewett Member

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    Justify to whom? The fundamental justification for most railway preservation activities is 'Because we choose to.' If people are spending their own time and money, what additional justification do they need?

    I can imagine a parallel universe where the UK government creates OFPRES, a body to regulate the preserved railway movement and ensure that any activity complies with strict standards of efficiency, practicality and usefulness. Any hint of sentimentality, enthusiasm or nostalgia would be stifled.

    I can't believe that's really what you'd advocate Paul. It would kill the movement. But that's the world your arguments seem to inhabit.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Many thanks for the comprehensive summary Tom. From the "what next?" question, it's probably easiest to rule out both the I2 and I4 (love the 'not conspicuously successful' btw). Marsh may be forgiven the I2 as a stepping-stone to the I3, but concerning the I4, what on earth was he thinking? Odd Maunsell never addressed either class's shortcomings .... perhaps just not enough suitable boilers available.

    The lack of drawings for the D3 is a shame, but doesn't surprise me, unlike those for the C2X and K, given the late survival of both classes. Are they known to be destroyed, or (hopefully) merely somewhere in the 'to do' pile at York?

    The usefulness of classes D1/D2 is an interesting one. There are many photos of D1's hauling remarkably long commuter trains in pre-overhead days. While gradients across much of the sometime LBSC London lines aren't in the same league as the Bluebell's continuous slog up to EG, the climb out of Victoria (down trains) and Clapham Jnc (up services) was a pretty severe test and the Newhaven boat train route was the regular stamping ground for the tender locos.

    Are we perhaps looking at both Stroudley 0-4-2 classes through the prism of the late D1 survivors wheezing along with light branch services? AIUI, the early demise of the D2 was due to most duties within it's power range being able to be performed by the (mechanically identical) tank version. The T.E of both 0-4-2's was around 7/8ths that of the B1 'Gladstone' class (which, let's remember, survived Robert Billinton's first attempt at a replacement) and they weighed only around 4 tons less. Here's a thought .... with a Craven design a distinct possibility, can it be assumed that sheer brute force isn't quite the killer issue with either Stroudley design?

    I confess that the comment about J1 'Abergavenny' caught me on the hop. I'd not for a moment considered commonalities with the atlantics, always having thought of this beastie as the link between classes I3 and L. As with the baltics, it's the suitability for low speed plodding which goes against the design for me, although it was certainly an extremely handsome machine. It'd almost certainly be the most expensive candidate for recreation boiler-wise, though savings on the rolling chassis may more than compensate.

    In the case of the K, I believe the 91/2" gauge model (built by none other than Lawson Billinton himself) survives and IIRC, he was provided with a full set of works drawings, from which the model was constructed. Whether the current owner would be amenable to his prize possession being dissected by reconstructionists would obviously be a matter for delicate negotiations and I wonder what became of the set of drawings formerly owned by Billinton. May they yet survive in the archives of that gentleman's family? We can but hope.

    So far as drawings held by the NRM (and other repositories) are concerned, many researchers have indicated that far better cooperation is forthcoming if a spot of reciprocal expertise is applied by those trawling the mountains of as-yet
    -uncatalogued drawings waded through to locate the desired documents. I get the distinct impression that scope exists for more of the mutually beneficial back scratching of the sort I understand occured during the search for the atlantic drawings.
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I appreciate that different people will take a different view on things. Ultimately, "buildable - useful - fundable" aren't binary choices: there is a bit of a continuum.

    That said, what about the D1/ D2? The key operational requirement, which defines load limits, is that a loco needs to be able to accelerate its maximum load to 25mph from rest up a 1 in 75 gradient quickly in order to meet the section times (remember the 1 in 75 starts from the platform end at both Horsted Keynes and Kingscote, so no getting up to speed on the flat and then just maintaining that speed - you have to accelerate on the gradient. The start from Kingscote has the additional issue of being on a curve); it needs to be able to at least start a train on the 1 in 55 for safety reasons; it needs to be able to do the one way trip with a reasonable margin of water remaining, including during the steam heating season. And ideally it needs to do all that with less than optimal coal; when due a washout etc, which tends to lower the acceptable value from what is possible under ideal conditions.

    The H class with 17,000lbf-odd tractive effort and 1200 gallons in the tanks will do that fairly easily with a 140 ton load. It will probably use about 700-odd gallons getting to East Grinstead in the steam heat season with that load (and about half as much coming back). Whereas I suspect a D1, with 15,000lb TE and critically only 850 gallons wouldn't have any margin at all with a 140 ton train (especially on water capacity and acceleration). You'd probably need to lower the weight limit to about 110 - 120 tons to get a reliable performance for acceleration and water usage. If you tried to push it regularly to 140 tons, you'd find a lot of crews dropping considerable time north of HK due to taking precautionary water at Kingscote, and not meeting the station to station section times.

    Why is that an issue? Because we run lot of 140 ton trains: both the Golden Arrow and Wealden Rambler end up at that weight, as, frequently, does the second train on a service 2 day away from the peak season. Even if the service train could be reduced to 110 - 120 tons, the daytime service engine is then invariably rostered for the evening Golden Arrow and has to cope with 140 anyway. So my feeling is that that is the nail in the coffin of either Stroudley design: it is just too small for the normal weight of train it would have to haul. To put it in context, the H class has run 8,000 - 9,000 miles per year for the last few years because it can reliably do any of those trains: Bluebell has run around 2,000 each year because there are far fewer trains run that are within its capacity. Any loco that can reliably haul 140 tons or more will find lots of work, but fall short - even a bit short - and suddenly there isn't much traffic on offer.

    So why the Craven, which would be similarly load-limited? Essentially because, being very different from anything else, it becomes attractive for film work (which is an important part of our business). Fundamentally, a D1 or D2, to a film company, is only really another small tank engine of which we already have numerous: the Craven engine essentially opens up a whole early Victorian market. (An earlier film job a couple of years back used our carriages, but hired in Furness No. 20). Essentially the Craven engine would occupy a very bespoke, but potentially valuable, niche from an operational point of view; whereas a D1/D2 would largely just need to be another day-in, day-out traffic engine, at which point there are much better choices - (indeed, the Billinton D3, based on the usefulness of the H, would almost invariably find lots of use if it could be built, but the lack of drawings is a problem).

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2017
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  4. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    They were handsome enough machines. Apparently their performance was pretty good too - unlike all the G&SW locos which Whitelegg rebuilt and spoiled... David L Smith wrote that loco men liked them. I suppose part of that was that they were prestigious. The G&SW *deserves* a new build, but surely not of something do untypical - a Manson loco would be a better bet. The Whitelegg Baltics were incredibly expensive - costing more to build than a Princess Coronation Pacific cost two decades later.
    I have always found Baltic tanks most handsome, and would happily welcome a new build of the Furness or Brighton types in particular. Personally I like the L&Y ones best. All of these types were reasonably successful in their original intended duties (contrary to popular wisdom) but superseded by either electrification (on the Brighton) or by the superb Fowler 2-6-4T and descendents. On the LMS, which was nothing if not a real railway, the economical operation and maintenance of a standard fleet spelt death to small numbers of 4-6-4Ts.
    I normally agree with PH's accusations of big chufferitis, but I think a Class 4 tank with good coal and water capacity is hardly excessive for the more popular lines. Even bigger driving wheels are unlikely to be an issue except on the Foxfield. If 6'9'' drivers could make it up Camden bank and Shap OK...
    At some periods people have been rather obsessed with driving wheel size (S Johnson esq of Derby!) but in the end it rarely seems to have been as important as all that. Not that I'm proposing to use the 8ft Single on a heavy coal train, or an Austerity on the ECML, but you get my drift.
     
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  5. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    Just to add my two peneth for what its worth, I don't regard the lack of drawings as the ultimate stumbling block and those lack of drawings are just a further hurdle to be overcome of the many any new build will require - look at it this way if XYZ loco ticked all the boxes (funding usefulness etc) why reject it just because Y loco has the suitable set of drawings yet its unlikely to pull the skin off a proverbial rice pudding or any other such reason. Yes those drawings will take time and effort but the tools to do such work are much more readily available today and from the most basic information an adequate replica can be built to meet all the requirements of a modern preserved railway, and if you don't believe me look at the web site for the recent 2-4-2 on the Lynton & Barnstable - its all there for all to see. Now some may quite rightly say "its only narrow gauge" but that is indeed a cop out and is only a simple mater of scale, however if you need a std. gauge example it was myself that drew (and it was subsequently constructed) all the CAD drawings for the "restoration" of Furness 20 from two very poor general arrangement drawings (loco & tender) and the added help of a number of photographs but with the end result was that about 80% of that loco is new does shows what's possible but also worth noting that the remaining original sections (the 20%) are all parts that have been recreated on other projects in preservation (Cylinders/frames/wheels & some motion) so if your interested in "no drawings XYZ loco" it is possible IF YOU REALLY WANT IT.
     
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  6. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    This thread is about replica builds for heritage lines, not spending more money than you have to on something faster or more powerful than necessary just because you happen to like express or heavy freight types. Conservation of what exists or providing new equipment to cope with requirements on Network Rail raise rather different issues.

    PH
     
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In general, I'm in broad agreement, though in the case of 'Lyn', there was at least the well documented 'big brother', in the form of the Puffing Billy line's closely related NA class to study.

    Regarding the LBSC D3, the lack of drawings is rather more of an issue IMO. These locos were a significant departure from all previous Brighton practice, as the then newly appointed Billinton was a student of the Derby school of design. AFAIK, no contemporary Midland 0-4-4t survives and how useful any surviving Derby drawings might be to a D3 resurrection has to be questionable. Without original authentic design specs, what would be the point?

    Tom has outlined the case for a Craven design, but I don't think the D3 comes remotely close to being able to be justified in the same manner ..... more's the pity!
     
  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I agree entirely about the (supposed) scope of this particular thread, and with your last sentence. However "spending more money than you have to" can be exactly the right thing to do if the project that you're spending it on has more appeal and therefore can bring in more money.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed, though I suspect it gets progressively more complex the more modern the locomotive. After all, locomotive drawing offices had teams of draughtsman drawing up locomotives, in the process doing calculations on stresses, weights and so on, and repeating all that ab initio is a big task. For the record, if the Craven loco gets built, there are only a couple of (fairly detailed) general arrangement drawings available, and everything else will have to be worked out afresh; however, I doubt a more modern and complex loco like the Atlantic or the K class mogul could be done on the same basis, at least not with the resources we have.

    One thing that has struck me watching the progress of "Beachy Head" over the last decade or so is how technology has changed. The early drawings were done by hand, patterns were made of wood etc. However, all the recent drawings have been done on CAD, patterns are done by 3D printing etc. It's been interesting to watch. I suspect some of it has become inevitable by virtue of the supply chain of small suppliers who actually fabricate many of the bits, in that many of them will be far more geared up these days to receiving CAD drawings to work from, rather than paper and having to work from there in a more manual fashion.

    Tom
     
  10. Bill Drewett

    Bill Drewett Member

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    Except that isn't really the case. Let's have a look at the question in post #1:

    'If money was available what type of steam locomotive would you love to see build for heritage lines?' (My emphasis).

    The question is about our fantasy, which is why we've had 25 pages of wonderfully imaginative flights of fancy. To insist on affordability and efficiency is to ignore the spirit of the question; it waves a magic wand and makes the money available.

    A Dean bogie single would be hopelessly impractical for most heritage line use, but it's my answer to the question that was actually asked.
     
  11. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    What about the locos to recreate that photo from the 50's

    LMS Garrett on a freight banked up Lickey by both Big Bertha & the LNER Garrett?
     
  12. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Please, just build a Midland Johnson 0-4-4T! Not only incredibly handsome but useful too, and there are shockingly few Midland locos preserved, for such a major line, let alone working.
    There's even a Stroudley connection, for the Brighton fans...
     
  13. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I think you'll find that the initial, starting question for this thread was "If money was available what type of steam locomotive would you love to see build for heritage lines?". People such as yourself have taken this debate and applied more financial and practical thinking, but the initial question was just asking, money no object, what would you like to see resurrected for use on a preserved line. I admit, it could be interpreted that the question is asking about locos one might define as suitable for heritage lines, but the variety of opinions of what is suitable and what is not will be as wide, if not wider, than the variety of locomotives one could suggest. This post was initially intended as WIBN. Let it be so
     
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  14. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    One thing I've wondered about recently in the light of the new cylinders being cast for 27, is that if 3D printing of patterns had been more established when Beachy Head's cylinders were being planned would they have been cast rather than fabricated?

    Steve B
     
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  15. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    The pace technology is moving forward in some areas is quite impressive - the power of 3d CAD modeling coupled with technology like 3d printers or lost polystyrene patterns (to say nothing of stuff that's now near routine like laser cut steel plates or 5 axis CNC milling machines), is transforming some aspects of heritage engineering.

    One of the things that is becoming apparent to me is that to a certain extent we need a new generation of engineers who are familiar with this sort of technology, and who aren't frightened to explore the possibilities some of this new technology poses. It doesn't always work (I've a few funny stories about that, including the boiler where we tried laser cut stay holes, not realizing how hard and un-reamable the edges of the holes would prove), but mostly it does.
    We also need people who can make good 3d CAD models (which is non-trivial - go away and try to draw a throatplate as it actually is - not just by using filets that merge - in Inventor or Solidworks and you'll understand what I mean - the first time I did it I spent about 7 hours finding a technique that gave satisfactiory results) - it's a rather strange skill, kind of a mixture of some old fashioned draft man's skills, computer programming skills (I find that the more I draw, the more my drawings end up based on fairly complex algorithms), and a certain degree of black magic (although not half as much as is needed to make 2d Autocad work properly).
     
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  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Things are shifting on the design front. Give it another 10 years and we'll probably be able to knock out even a Caprotti cylinder block direct from CAD software with no intervening pattern stage ... a few years after that, liners in different grades of suitable materials.

    Mind you, the printer will probably need to run at 11Kv, direct from the National Grid!
     
  17. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    In this modern age the calculation of weights, stresses and so on has become very easy and probably more is now available to a builder than was ever available to that army of design staff of days gone by. Yes a more modern locomotive will require a bit more work than a loco from the 1860s (or earlier) however in engineering terms any locomotive even the most modern is a simple machine in engineering terms these days.
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Paul, I have spent the last five, nearly six months working on one of these "25mph tourist railways" and I can assure you that working on a Pullman train, running in the dark, needing to meet specific timetable needs for a variety of reasons (connecting trains, taxis, etc), I am exceptionally grateful for the big, heavy freight engines (the Q class and S15) and their crews which in the main are able to keep to time.

    Gents, we've done this argument to death and it never goes anywhere. Paul refuses to believe that different railways have different needs: we know from personal experience what we require to do our bits for our railways.

    At the end of the day, all Mr Hitch is doing is damaging his own reputation. Let's leave it at that.
     
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  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Although I normally have you on "ignore" I though I would have a look just to see what the arch "big chufferite" might have to say. Odd then that he should regard a "Q" as a "big heavy freight engine" whereas I don't! Just the right size in fact.

    PH
     
  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Don't give up on technology too soon. I think that if you had gone for waterjet cut stay holes you'd have had no problems.
     

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