If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Battle of Cambrai - what Locos

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Jimc, Nov 20, 2017.

  1. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    [​IMG]

    Trains taking tanks to the battle of Cambrai. The leading engines on two of the trains at least are obviously Dean Goods. What are the second ones?

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205215583?cat=photographs

    http://www.iwm.org.uk/corporate/privacy-copyright © IWM (Q 46936)
     
    Jamessquared and LesterBrown like this.
  2. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2005
    Messages:
    3,808
    Likes Received:
    946
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Liverpool
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    North British J 36 0-6-0s.
     
    LesterBrown likes this.
  3. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    Would suggest both locos are Dean Goods; note the second loco has brass at chimney top which was a GWR practice but not that of the impoverished / canny NBR.
     
  4. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    709
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I beg to differ, square cab spectacles so not J36. I suspect they are SNCB Class 44s, another good Scottish design!

    Foxy
     
    Wenlock and Jimc like this.
  5. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    709
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    [​IMG]
     
    std tank and Jimc like this.
  6. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,440
    Likes Received:
    6,546
    This seems to be getting muddled. The train on the left is indeed hauled by what became a J36, while that in the middle is double headed by a Dean Goods and an SNCB class 44 as illustrated so well by @Foxhunter. I am wondering what the loco is that is piloting the J36 - is it another Dean Goods?

    Peter James
     
  7. GWR4707

    GWR4707 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    18,042
    Likes Received:
    15,732
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I would agree with the original poster that its a Dean Goods, round spectacles, belpaire firebox and polished safety value cover.
     
  8. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Its certainly a Dean Goods piloting the train on the left. Safety valve cover, belpaire boiler, GWR style tender.
    I still seem to see a polygonal cab spectacle window on the l/h train engine though. It also appears to have that distinctive line of fittings on the firebox above the handrail.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  9. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    709
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry to disagree Peter, but that IS another Class 44 on the LHS, piloted by another Dean Goods:

    large_000000.jpg

    Definitely square spectacle windows and firebox stay heads (?) clearly visible.

    Foxy
     
  10. 6024KEI

    6024KEI Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    860
    Likes Received:
    472
    Location:
    Bath
    So there seems to be a pattern of Dean Goods piloting a Class 44 - which suggests its deliberate - so why? Is it to do with braking systems on the French or Belgian rolling stock and the Dean Goods not being compatible?
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,440
    Likes Received:
    6,546
    I guess that you can see more detail than I can in that picture. To me, at first glance, it looks like what was then called a NBR "C" Class where as the middle train has an unmistakable Class 44. I note another Class 44 on the extreme right. Either way it is a very interesting photograph - thanks to @Jimc for posting it.

    Peter
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,100
    Likes Received:
    57,416
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Doing some reading I think most likely Plateau was a large yard where the standard gauge rails ended and battlefield transport took over. Judging by the name it was a high and dry spot. Most likley it survived no longer than the time the war was in its vicinity.

    Presumably they're the same trains, but in that tank100 photo those are clearly Class 44 with what look extraordinarily like GWR tenders in front of them.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    Jamessquared likes this.
  14. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    709
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    'Plateau'was not a station as such, just an unloading/loading point, from the ROD report 1914-1919, "The preliminary moves took 436 MkI1 tanks, their personnel and stores to four advanced locations, south and west of Arras. Starting on 11 November all but 40 tanks were concentrated at Plateau, the support railhead on the high ground east of Albert, where additional sidings and six loading ramps had been constructed. Here, ammunition and stores were embarked."

    I hope this helps.

    Foxy
     
    Bluenosejohn and Jamessquared like this.
  15. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I found this map...
    https://ncc1717.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/plateau-both-2.jpg

    on this page.
    https://ncc1717.wordpress.com/train-layout/

    I think this is the approx location, but there's nothing there now. If you put satellite view on and zoom in and out I think its possible to spot crop marks where the tracks were in a few places.

    https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/49°58'33.8"N+2°45'29.7"E

    trouble is its so easy to see what you want to see...

    The aerial photos on Bing Maps are a different season and I think the line is a bit clearer.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    Jamessquared and Bluenosejohn like this.
  16. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2005
    Messages:
    5,275
    Likes Received:
    3,077
    Thanks for the very interesting posts. I cycled around the area a few years ago but had no idea that there was such an extensive railway system there. I have had all the necessary knowledge about the use of railways in WW1 for years but never integrated it in my mind sufficiently to imagine the scene at the time.
     
  17. Foxhunter

    Foxhunter Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2011
    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    709
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Jim, you are spot on! You can still see the loops in 'Happy Valley' on Google Earth.... I spent a week last summer riding round the area taking part in commemorations to mark 'The Charge at High Wood', the only successful cavalry action during the 1916 Somme offensive. The 7th Dragoon Guards and 20th Deccan Horse formed up in the valley at Carnoy, just under the ridge where 'Plateau' station was located and you are right, there is nothing left of it.
    [​IMG]
    This image of the 20th Deccan Horse was taken from the north side of Plateau, overlooking the valley with the metre gauge railway between the cavalry and the artillery limbers in the background.

    Foxy
     
  18. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    469
    Likes Received:
    929
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Although on their native metals the Deans would of course be the train engine and being piloted by the Class 44!

    I imagine the ROD/SNCF were excused that bit of Swindon genius....
     
  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Just ROD I think. What's the story behind the ROD having all those Belgian locos? Did their crews evacuate in front of the advancing Germans?
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Many folk will tend to do just that when they have a live firearm pointed at them.
     
    DismalChips, oddsocks and CH 19 like this.

Share This Page