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Cumbrian Mountain Express - 14/10/17

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by iancawthorne, Oct 2, 2017.

  1. RayMason

    RayMason Member

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    A self imposed period of quiet from experts using RTT ??
    The limitations of RTT are well rehearsed but yet people miles away have the temerity to,essentially,cast doubt on WCRC/NR/Loco-/crew/Promotor
    Reports from passengers or actual drivers/TOC are the only source.

    In FGW land experts denounce FGW Etc because RTT shows a reason that in time proves wrong.
    Medical assistance is now much more common and leads to long delays at times. RTT has to ‘guess’ times on rural lines and in any case doesn’t possess psychic powers!!

    On the next CME let’s wait for someone with FACTS to report before blasting off against RTC/WCRC/NR or a suspected trespasser - this forum can be( not always) a very unfriendly space for those trying to achieve , well, anything
    Yours v sadly, Ray Mason
     
  2. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    Me!
     
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  3. Will RL

    Will RL Member

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    6DF21F46-230C-454A-BA40-13E121953D61.jpeg

    I think this references best what you’re trying to get across...
     
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  4. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's sad that you are sad. Working out second hand what is going on by using RTT can, as you say, be unwise for all the reasons you state...and a few others!

    In this case, all we know is that the S&C was managed really well given the load and before the problems beyond Hellifield the train more or less kept its path. Ditto for Shap except that the Jubilee couldn't handle the load and keep in its path with the conditions the crew faced and the load. My confusion is that it was deemed ok to run a Jubilee with 12. It was known to be a Jubilee long before the RTC started selling seats at a discount to get more custom. They must have done this because WCRC said it was ok to do so rather than drop a coach which I challenge anyone to say wouldn't have been a wise move.

    It just strikes me as a rather risky thing to do when you are trying to slot trains in on the WCML. But I know nothing.
     
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  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    So, nothing to see hear, move on is the call?
    Ok but can we be absolutely clear on one fundamental point please? This forum has absolutely no impact on anyone "trying to acheive anything" unless they choose to allow it to do so. You perceive criticism but how you respond to it is your choice. An alternative response would be listening to folk with genuine, reasonable and sincere concerns over certain operational decisions. As @BigAl says, if the FACTS of this delayed train brings unwanted scrutiny from the authorities it will have much wider consequences.
     
  6. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Enjoyed your excellent report Oswald T. We must have crossed paths in the Woodrow again!! Got delayed in posting mine but as it's coming from a very different angle, thought I'd add it to the thread anyway.

    CMEs and the CME of the 14th October 2017

    So, here we go again was my thought when the ticket Email came and the load for the CME was 10 passenger carrying coaches + POB + Kitchen Car with either of the Jubilees as motive power. Bit hard to believe after the 15th July, but WCR had no option as they do not seem to have access in the north to any Class 7 or 8 locomotives at present. Given its leaf fall season, the risks of slipping on Grayrigg and Shap are high, and then there's the S&C and Wilpshire. On the latter there is an inevitability not just a chance of slipping, probably to a stand with all the potential consequences.

    Carnforth to Shap

    To allow a steam hauled train northbound over Shap leads to interesting and seriously challenging timings. This is a bit of a forensic breakdown of the northbound path:

    A steam hauled train leaving Carnforth U&DGL from rest is expected to get to Milnethorpe, 7 miles away, just into the climb to Grayrigg, in 12 minutes. The profile is: 1/2 mile of 1 in 369d; bit of level onto Yealand Bank, 2 1/2 miles at 1 in 134; then 3 miles of 293d/level then 1/2 mile + at 1 in 173

    We are then allowed 7 minutes for the 5 and a bit miles to Oxenholme over 3 1/4 miles of 1 in 173; 3/4 mile at 1 in 392; a mile at 1 in 111 followed by 3/4 mile at 1 in 176 into the station. A total of 13 and a bit miles, most of which is 'against the collar' in 19 minutes. To quote Douglas Adam's Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy '...this is of course impossible'; and nothing ever gets close, a quote applicable to the rest of the timings to Shap Summit.

    From Oxenholme they only allow 8 1/2 minutes for the 8 3/4 miles to Grayrigg. The successive section profiles are 1/2 mile at 1 in 176; 3/4 mile at 1 in 104; 1/4 at 1 in 213; 3/4 mile at 1 in 124; almost 2 1/2 miles at 1 in 131; and a final 2 1/4 miles at 1 in 106 to Grayrigg Summit. Then they allow 2 1/2 minutes for the 2 miles to Low Gill made up of 1/4m at 1 in 396; a mile at 1 in 214d and 3/4 mile at 1 in 777.

    And what of the fearsome Shap? After Low Gill they allow 5 minutes to cover the 3 3/4 miles section used to recover from Grayrigg and make up speed for the assault on Shap. This involves: 1/4 mile at 1 in 777; 1/2 mile of level track; almost 2 miles at 1 in 425d; a mile and a bit of level track to Tebay South then the first 1/2 mile of 1 in 146.

    And then Shap. They allow 6 1/2 minutes for the 5 1/2 miles to the summit. The profile is a mile of 1 in 146 followed by 4 miles at 1 in 75 before levelling off for 1/4 mile to pass the summit board.

    Over the top and down through Penrith to Carlisle.

    They allowed 15 1/2 minutes for the almost 14 miles from Shap Summit to Penrith North Lakes. The profile is: 1/4 mile of level; 1/2 mile 130d; a mile of 106d; 1/2 mile+ of level; 1 1/4 miles of 142d; and from then on 7 miles of 125d which gives plenty of opportunity to get to 75. It's all downhill to Carlisle approach. They allow a ridiculously generous 13 minutes for the 10 1/2 miles to Southwaite, then a further 9 minutes for the 7 miles into Carlisle Citadel.

    The basis is what you lose on the climbs you can make up on the 31 miles of downhill to Carlisle. Fine in theory, but if you lose too much between Carnforth and Shap there's a danger of following electric services being too close to allow us to avoid being looped at Penrith.

    So, it's the WCML and the timings to Shap are tight. A question: if you were a TOC, what locomotive would you deem capable of hauling a 12 coach train over the route? A Class 8 with a minimum of a Class 7? In the leaf fall season? A Class 8.

    The Guidelines oft mentioned but never applied allows a TOC to make exceptions to the Class of locomotive based on successfully run precedents over the route with the load. We have precedent, 15th July, a wet summer's day with Leander + 12. But not in the leaf fall season. And we know how that one went; a bit of a struggle and close to disaster on Wilpshire Bank.

    On the day

    So how did this one stack up? Well the weather was similar to July, wet again, though it was windier from our departure from Carnforth U&DGL. We were 4th coach on the outward journey. Our driver was John Rogers on his first CME after being passed out I was informed. The excellent Chris Holes was there to provide the steam.

    (Sigh) We should have started out with a clear 36 minute window over the Euston to Glasgow. Without this there would be no CME over Shap. But, as virtually every other time the train has run, the TPE from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh was late; this time by a full 9 minutes. So our window had immediately closed to 27 minutes. A check on RTT however showed that the Glasgow itself was running a bit late and was actually 30 1/4 minutes behind us.

    Doubts about Leander's ability to keep to time were evident from the start. The climb of Yealand Bank was not good, the summit passed at 26.6(31.6). What of the approach to Grayrigg Bank? We roared through Milnthorpe at 53.9(55.1) but had taken 14 minutes, reducing our window to just over 28 minutes. Things started going south then and by Hincaster, near the top of the 1 in 174, we were down to 44.8(49.8). Oxenholme was passed at 35(42.9) in 22 1/2 minutes, window now 27 mins. The bank was really its toll and by MP23 3/4, the end of the 1 in 131, start of the 1 in 103, we were down to 30(34.7).

    Passing MP24 there was a flashing TSR Chevron and a 20 board. A mile in we were down to 25(31.3) and at MP 25 1/2, the position of the T-Board, 23(29.1). We passed Grayrigg Summit at 23.6(28.3) after 36 1/4 mins, window now just over 21 mins. We had a short slip at the summit and set off for the Lune Gorge. The crew worked really hard but we only roared through Tebay at 63 after 43 1/2 mins, window still just over 21 mins. We left the 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 146 at 55(58). There was a strong wind from the west and a mile into the 1 in 75 speed had fallen to 44.5(48); 2 miles in, 29.7(35.5); 3 miles in, 16(24.5; then: 1/4 17.2(23.7); 1/2 17.9(23.2); 3/4 18(22.2); 37 18.6(21.9); 37 1/4 19.6(21). It was quite a remarkable recovery from 16 to 19.6 over the final 1 1/4 miles, coinciding with the tree lined embankment. We passed MP 37 1/2, the plateau summit at 21 after 55 mins 52 secs(48m 50s), the window now just over 17 minutes, confirmed by RTT.

    So that should have been plenty of time in hand. Just over 4 miles 'down the bank' we hit 74 then quickly 75. We held 75 for 5 miles and as the Glasgow was a Penrith Stopper we should have surely been allowed to run down to Carlisle? But no; we were checked and then looped at Penrith as service trains rule. The time we got the double ambers was 12:33 and we were doing 75. That would have taken us through Penrith at 12:37. The Glasgow arrived at 12:43 and left at 12:45. In that 8 minutes we would have been a further 9 miles down the bank, only 8 miles or so from Carlisle. We would in all probability arrived at Citadel by 12:55, 15 down, 9 of that caused by the late running TPE. No time comparison with July but the non-stop run then took 18m 45s. So despite everything the path does work even for a grossly overloaded Class 5X - though one slip on Shap and it would have been a very different story.... incidentally the Glasgow was booked into 1 and arrived at Citadel at 1258. Could they have let us go at Penrith?

    So, a rushed lunch and only time to sample 3 of the 12 beers in the Beer Festival Tent (only do full pints) at the Woodrow Wilson. The train was in the station and we left on time.

    Carlisle to Appleby

    One of the disappointing things of the July run was this leg. The allowance of 48 minutes is a generous one, yet again we failed to meet it. The early 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 132 to Cumwhinton was a real struggle again, the 4 miles taking 12m 47s, the old station building passed at only 24(24 ). After the 3/4 level bit our speed had increased to 35(34 ) as we tackled the 3 miles of 1 in 132 to Low House Crossing. There was a short slip alongside Howe & Co. Box and we suffered a steady loss of speed despite the noise from the front, heard in Coach 10. We slipped twice and left the section at 27(29). On the downhill after Low House speed rose noisily to 50(45). Then we lost 6 mph to 3/4 of a mile of 1 in 132 to Armathwaite 44(40) and that set the trend. The remaining significant grade is the 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 120 after Long Marton. We hit it at 50(48) and came off it at 37(37). Then we drifted into Appleby 6 late after 52 mins(61m 53s).

    Appleby to Ais Gill

    The precedent of 15th July was that Leander would struggle to get to Ais Gill in the allotted time of 29 minutes which seems generous to say the least.

    A swift water stop saw us leave RT. Down grade to Ormside we picked up to 48(52) and took this onto the 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 100. We slipped a mile in and our speed had dropped to 30 into Helm Tunnel(41). A mile out, MP272 1/4, we slipped again and by then speed was down to 22(31). The next mile+ of 1 in 166 saw a bit of a recovery at MP271 to 26(29) where a short slip made no difference to our momentum. Over the lesser grades around Crosby Garret we'd recovered to 38( ) at the tunnel entrance but it all went south after that on the 1 in 100 to Kirkby Stephen in the drizzle. A mile in. MP268 we were down to 31(31). A further slip dropped us to 24 then 23 at MP267. On the easing 1 in 264 we 'Raced' through Kirkby Stephen at 23(23); passed the Signal Box, mp266 1/2 at 23(25), and picked up to 26(28).

    By mp265 we were down to 21(25) and struggling. Birkett Tunnel was exited at 20(27), held to the end of the 1 in 100. The respite 3/4 of a mile 1 in 330 was used well by Mick to get us back up to 32(35) at mp263. The final 3 miles of 1 in 100 saw Leander worked really hard yet speed fell to 23(17) as we reached the summit of the climb. We passed the plateau summit board, mp259 3/4 at 28(25). Time taken was 41m 7s(36m 43s).

    Ais Gill to Hellifield

    We roared through Garsdale at 50(41); left Rise Hill Tunnel at 41(45) and drifted down into Blea Moor Tunnel at 47(50). After we crossed Batty Moss Viaduct we picked up to 60(62) by Selside; ran through Horton-in-Ribblesdale at 63(60), Settle at 61(57) and came off the S&C at 60(60). Leander roared along to pass Settle Jn at 65(60) and we arrived at Hellifield for our final Water Stop after an apparent TPWS Brake Moment at 1702, 15 down. This was a critical situation as we had a very tight path to Horrocksford Jn to be there before the Clitheroe-Manchester left the Jn at 1735. Worse there was a second train 18 minutes later. It's just over 12 miles from Hellifield on track with a line speed of 50. Leave late and it's odds on for a late arrival at Blackburn and Farington Jn.

    Then we heard an ontrain announcement had informed us that a lady passenger had unfortunately been taken ill and had collapsed on the train. It was unsure what was going to happen further into our journey.

    Hellifield to Blackburn and Farington Jn

    We left 11 down and were allowed across Horrocksford Jn ahead of the 1745 which was waiting to pull out for Clitheroe. At Clitheroe we stopped for first Paramedics to attend, and then for an Ambulance to transport the person to hospital. We wish her well.

    We left Clitheroe with a clear road some 26 minutes late. On the level/down grade we roared up over Whalley Arches at 43(18). When off them we hit the 3 miles of 1 in 81 1/2 at 41(17) then slipped just after mp17 and dropped from 40 to 30(17). It was a battle thereafter and we lost 3 mph per quarter. We climbed through Langho Station, mp15 1/2 at 21(16) and it looked good for Wilpshire Tunnel until a slip near mp14 dropped us back to 17.5(8). We were in the 'atmospheric' deep cutting and looking down from my window I saw rust covered rails with leaves seemingly 'glued' on every couple of inches. No shiny rail in sight. The units don't touch the rail. As is common in such conditions we slipped into the tunnel and left at 12.4(6) into an almost immediate slip.

    We really struggled through the old Wilpshire Station at 6 mph(10) and inevitably stalled. A 5X with big drivers on the 1 in 86 on evil rail? Don't think Ladbroke's would even have quoted odds on a restart!! We set back and Mick somehow restarted the train, one bark from the chimney at a time, but a major slip saw speed drop to 1.3!! he kept her going somehow but then a short slip followed by 2 further slips then a big slip caused us to stall again. We wondered what on earth they were going to do as we had 3 service trains behind us!!

    Remarkably, having dropped back to get some shiny rail under her presumably, Mick very slowly eased her forward. Bark by bark, inch by inch, we crept up through the old Wilpshire Station at 5.9, nearly 12 minutes after we left the tunnel which was less than 1/2 mile behind us!! How Mick kept her moving forward is a thing of legend and we came off the 1 in 86 at close to 10mph and held that through Ramsgreave and Wilpshire, the summit. It was plain sailing thereafter and we even had a green through Daisyfield to roll into Blackburn a mere 41 late. Don't think Northern were best pleased as we'd seriously delayed 3 of their services by then, but a medical emergency made it inevitable.

    A superb dash downgrade saw a maximum of 74 just after Hogton LC and we stopped at Farington Jn for our loc change just 38 down with thought of actually making our 2009 MAN-NWP train in the backs of our minds.

    So another disaster averted by some amazingly skilful driving from Mick Kelly. Huge thanks Mick. Lord knows what the solution to a full unrecoverable stall on Wilpshire would have been. A diesel would have to have been sent down to Farington Curve and allowed to run 'wrong road' off the single line to drop onto the front of our train. How long that would have taken I have no idea but hours???

    My thoughts on the day was that WCR should have played safe and either put a diesel on the back - we would have bailed at Carlisle - or taken my favoured option, double headed the 2 Jubilees. It would have been a first in preservation and would also have probably prevented all the issues we had. Any talk of using BIL was a joke with railhead conditions as bad as we experienced. I wouldn't have liked to have tackled Wilpshire Bank in those conditions with any Class 8 Pacific. Guardsman would have been the ideal single engine, a big Class 7 4-6-0 able to 'sit back' on the rear drivers if it did slip to a stand.

    All in all another memorable CME for the final one of the year. Thanks to Nigel for running such an interesting series of trains this year; to WCR for the running of it; for the ever improving condition of the stock; and for the provision of excellent crews. We understand Chris Holmes fired all day. Our sympathies as well as thanks. Thanks are tempered by their choice of locomotive for the train in the conditions.

    Thanks to a rapid dash down the WCML to Crewe we did catch the 0809 which ironically was itself held up by of all things nocturnal cattle on the line on Llanvihangel Bank. Apparently they slid to a stand on the greasy rail....
     
  7. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Ray Mason (as most of us know) is close to the heart of RTC and he is entitled to express his feelings. I'd be very surprised if he doesn't take the feedback back to the source of the operational decision. However, neither RTC or the TOC are obliged to inform this forum of their reasoning. The only people entitled to an explanation (should they want one) are NR or another TOC that suffered delay as a result.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2017
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  8. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    Excellent review as usual, but I have one query about the 17 minute window at Shap Summit. I was at that point to see the Jubilee pass, and a rough guess would have put the Pendolino at easily under 5 minutes behind the 5X. It was crawling up, checked by the signals, basically couldn't have been any closer. Am I misunderstanding the 17 minute window calculation?
     
  9. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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  10. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Nobody is seriously expecting, demanding or believing entitled to any comment though obviously it would be very interesting to know what the operational considerations were that gave confidence in an unassisted 5X.
    As @1020Shireman has said, the act of getting the train over the top at Wilpshire was a stupendous feat of enginemanship, just as on 15th July. Not only were the rail conditions bad, the gradient, cant and curve were against the train too plus a sticking tap blowing oily water ahead of the loco. I wonder whether the views of the drivers are taken into account when planning the operation as to whether an assisting loco ought to be taken? Yes this was a triumph in the face of considerabl adversity. With hindsight would the same decisions be taken, because most of the difficulties seem to have significant self inflicted aspects, all of which were reasonably predicatable at the planning stage? Does trying to do the right thing mean ignoring common sense?
     
  11. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Who has to pay whom when train B is delayed by train A but train A is late because of a medical emergency?
     
  12. henrywinskill

    henrywinskill Well-Known Member

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    Well said Al but dont expect many likes.Is there a handshake for the likers lol My dislike button doesnt seem to be working lol
     
  13. 45581

    45581 Part of the furniture

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    The last southbound RHTT between Clitheroe and Blackburn was the previous evening at 19.00 from Clitheroe, so full marks to Mick Kelly for getting his train up the bank on clearly a very difficult rail. I was near Clitheroe and could see him waiting and assumed the previous unit had had difficulties up the climb so followed the train to Wilpshire and found him struggling up the straight from Wilpshire tunnel..... DSE_5584.jpg
     
  14. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The difficulty getting up Wilpshire was simply the adhesion limit. The tractive effort when the wheels could get a grip was quite sufficient, and the limited boiler capacity of a smaller loco only limits the speed at which any given tractive effort (within the maximum available) can be sustained. Would a bigger loco have had enough additional adhesion weight to make much difference?

    A while back there was some discussion on here of the possibility of having a support coach containing a diesel engine to provide additional traction when needed while adding only a little extra dead weight, far less than a diesel locomotive. I can't find that discussion now*, but I recall that various difficulties were raised and the conclusion seemed to be that it was impracticable. But I think the concept was of a coach with the diesel engine inside, taking up a lot of space. What about one coach from a DMU, with the engine underneath and all the inside available apart from a driver's cab?

    *Can someone find that thread, and if so can this be moved there?
     
  15. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

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    Princess Elizabeth struggled on Wilpshire some years back, captured by various videos, adhesion being the only factor, tractive effort in no way the problem.
     
  16. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    Just closing speeds. The window is a bit 'theoretical'.
     
  17. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

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    They were the worst railhead conditions on Wilpshire I've seen in 20+ years. Rust and way more leaves than I expected. Adhesion was nigh on unmeasurable. Doubt if the DMUs managed the bank without slipping. Doubt one driven axle would have been able to provide much assistance on Saturday night.
     
  18. sycamore

    sycamore Member

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    so has 48151, probably one of the best steam locos for adhesion out there!
     
  19. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

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    Pretty sure the load on Saturday was greater than that which an 8f would have been permitted for Wilpshire.
    The recent interview with Gordon Hodgson gave superb insight into both Wilpshire and Jubilees as I recall.
    All that can be deduced is that a risk was taken, miraculosly got away with. But why choose to enter the realms where heroic daring do is a basic requirement? I would imagine the Wilpshire experience caused no little distress to the crew fearing the worst. Magnificent acheivement it became.
     
  20. 45581

    45581 Part of the furniture

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    I reckon the enginemanship on Wilpshire has got to be up there with the heroic effort to get 45407 out of Bradford Interchange up to Bowling tunnel on 28th January 2006. They never tried that again..................
     

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