If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Dave Stapleton

    Dave Stapleton Member

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2014
    Messages:
    388
    Likes Received:
    678
    Location:
    UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Deleted
     
  2. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2015
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Good point but if you did that surely it would remove a part of the protection leaving only detonators to protect what’s left in section. The token and signals work together in this case. Taking the token out of section either for or with the recovery engine means in theory that a token could be released (from either end if the token was put back in the machine) and the signals could be cleared, which means to a driver ‘line clear’. If the token stays in section then no mistake can happen and no signals can be cleared, this in turn means an engine passing signals at danger is done under instruction and the enginemen will always know why they are going into section. This way no mis-communication can occur and in theory reduces the risk of the human mind defaulting to “I have the signal and the token so the line is clear” which is the normal thought process an engine man has. To me it would be safest to leave the token with any failed portion and only brought back when the line is clear.
     
    Jeff Price, Yorkshireman and 21B like this.
  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    The intention is to make someone responsible for the protection of the failed train and to ensure that the token is not returned to a signalbox until the section is cleared, so that there is no prospect of misunderstanding.
     
    Yorkshireman likes this.
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In the old (BR 1950s) rulebook, and variants thereof, one of the protections is that if the failed train has to be divided in order to effect a rescue, the tail lamp has to stay with the part remaining in section. So the signalman has another reminder that, because he hasn't seen a tail lamp, the section is not yet clear if the rescue loco has to re-enter the section to collect a second portion, and can warn the loco crew accordingly.

    I can understand that, in the context of a modern railway with no local signal boxes and so on, the rule book has to be updated to cope with conditions that are very different from the "traditional" railway. Where I am struggling is, in the context of a heritage line operation that is still largely traditional, what operational advantage there is in changing rules that were honed over many years to be well adapted to the kinds of risks faced by "traditional" railways? Changing a railway's rule book is a non-trivial operation, so presumably in each case the railways concerned had some pressing operational issue that they felt was better covered by using a "modern", rather than a "traditional", rule book? (For want of better terms).

    Tom
     
    Paul Kibbey and Black Jim like this.
  5. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    Good question. It is however consistent with the NR approach. When the rule book was being drafted the NR rulebook was considered along with RSSB and ORR advice. I suppose the answer is that if you can have two people check something, you should. Two pairs of eyes being better than one. It isnt complicated in practice.
     
  6. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It does rely on the Signalman not returning the token to the instrument. But that is no different to in the normal case, relying on the Signalman not to return the token to the instrument until they are satisfied the train is complete and clear of the section.

    Bear in mind ETT Regulation 14 also covers other related situations such as rescuing a portion of a divided train, in which case the vehicles being rescued will not have a token.

    There is additional protection - in the case of the SVR rulebook at least - in that once the section is clear, the next train through the section must also be cautioned as to what has happened.
     
  7. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    To answer the first part....leaving the tail lamp is still a requirement for the reasons you underline. The retention of the token by the driver of the failed train is "belt and braces" in some respects.

    Motivations for changing the rulebook (ours was based on BR1970 era)....
    1. Many rules covered activities or circumstances that could not occur on our railway due to its construction and signalling
    2. Updates were difficult to maintain when the rulebook was not electronic
    3. To incorporate various practices that had been established over the years enshrined in operating notices or appendices
    4. To simplify and modernise the language of the rulebook
     
    Steve, Wenlock and Jamessquared like this.
  8. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2009
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes Received:
    6,303
    We are in danger of having to exchange rulebooks to compare notes, but the differences are not great. Our approach is only different in that the failed train (its driver) retains the token until all of it is out of the section, in this way providing an additional layer of protection over the situation where the assisting engine takes the token and then might give it up. I think the protection it affords is unlikely to ever be required by say the SVR who have a different approach, and I cant see that the SVR approach is anything other than just different. I am not critical of the alternative methods, merely explaining ours, and the reasoning behind it. In short we have what we consider to be a small additional layer of protection because it makes sense to us in our context. All the other layers are also there.
     
    Forestpines likes this.
  9. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,246
    Likes Received:
    17,946
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    An opportunity to 'bring home' a significant West Somerset Railway Relic.

    Minehead Signal Box closed in 1966. Since then the original cast iron signal box name plate has been in private hands. The owner has now offered the West Somerset Railway the chance to acquire this relic, which is in original condition, just as it was removed from the signal box. If the funds can be raised, the plate will pass into the ownership of the West Somerset Steam Railway Trust, who will ensure that it is kept available for posterity.

    £1,400 needs to be raised as a matter of urgency to secure this item. If you can help, please don't send any money now, but e-mail Robin White, who is co-ordinating this effort at robin215white@btinternet.com with your pledge.

    Minehead Signal Box Plate.jpg
     
  10. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2015
    Messages:
    737
    Likes Received:
    4,393
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    [QUOTE="There is additional protection - in the case of the SVR rulebook at least - in that once the section is clear, the next train through the section must also be cautioned as to what has happened.[/QUOTE]

    Yes good point, the WSR rulebook has the same requirement as well, always useful these debates as it made me go back and read our rulebook again. :)
     
    Wenlock, Yorkshireman and Forestpines like this.
  11. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Indeed - my reply was really to @Andy Norman 's suggestion that it would be safer if, should a failed train need to be divided in order to be rescued, the token (or other authority) should stay with the portion(s) left on the single line.
     
  12. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,681
    Likes Received:
    2,438
    Gender:
    Female
    Location:
    Somewhere in the UK
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    This popped up on Facebook earlier - the current owner bought it for £1232 at an auction last weekend and had been trying to sell it on eBay before he thought of offering it to you.
     
    michaelh likes this.
  13. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,246
    Likes Received:
    17,946
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    In fact I contacted him and I believe the price we have been offered it at reflects what he paid (inc buyers premium).

    For us in Somerset, of course, it is priceless (but pledges of £10, £50 or £100 would help!)

    Robin
     
    granmaree and Yorkshireman like this.
  14. railrover

    railrover Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    362
    At the risk of being accused of waving a wet blanket I'm somewhat in two minds about this particular appeal for funds.

    If it was certain that the £1400 required was likely to come from sources which would not otherwise donate for alternative purchases then all well & good. On the other hand it strikes me that, if bought by the railway, the plate would almost certainly end up as a museum exhibit as it would be too risky to reattach it to the box.

    That being the case the cost does seem a little high, not necessarily in relation to the value a collector would place on it in today's market, but high in comparison to producing a replica box plate for exhibition purposes.

    £1400 would buy quite a few replica heritage signs for the railway, especially welcome to replace some of the modern monstrosities which have recently appeared along the line.
     
    jnc, michaelh and Aberdare like this.
  15. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,246
    Likes Received:
    17,946
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yep, wet blanket.

    It's not a reproduction, it's the original. And it will 'end up' in one of our museums.

    There is no compulsion to make a contribution, and if you don't like the idea, put your money elsewhere - it's a free country.

    I will be making a contribution!

    Robin
     
    Paul Kibbey and Yorkshireman like this.
  16. railrover

    railrover Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2011
    Messages:
    226
    Likes Received:
    362
    A fair enough point of view Robin. I agree with you it would be nice to have it back at it's home railway, but I do wonder if the sum of money involved might be more usefully spent on other projects.

    You have (in earlier posts) commented on the undesirability of modern signage around the railway. Where signage is needed I, like you, think it should be both heritage friendly whilst remaining consistent with safety. Might I suggest a compromise? Why not start two funds, one for the Minehead SB sign, another to fund heritage replacement signs in lieu of the recently installed modern ones. If so I'll gladly make a contribution to the second.
     
  17. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2014
    Messages:
    11,246
    Likes Received:
    17,946
    Gender:
    Female
    Occupation:
    Barrister
    Location:
    Stogumber
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I can't speak for other stations, but I am aware that Stogumber Friends have been in discussion with the WSR plc but there appears to be a degree of rigidity about what is to be allowed.

    But we are talking about apples and oranges: the 'bringing home of an heritage artefact for display'and 'signage of the operating railway'. Quite different things.

    Robin
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    NYMR's rulebook requires the driver of the assisting loco to take possession and retain until the whole train has been removed. This is also the case if a train slips to a stand and requires help up the hill. There is nothing wrong with the train engine and it will do its bit in getting the train on the way again but it is regarded as a failure until out of section.
     
    Forestpines likes this.
  19. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2015
    Messages:
    1,826
    Likes Received:
    3,871
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Any plans to reinstate the water crane?
     
    Paul Kibbey likes this.
  20. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2014
    Messages:
    4,486
    Likes Received:
    5,045
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Comfy chair occupant!
    Location:
    No moaners please!
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Remember that the decision to place the new signs was made by the WSR PLC. They have to be convinced that they were wrong. That takes time. We don't know the facts behind their appearance. It would be wise to wait until we do.
     
    Dennis John Brooks likes this.

Share This Page