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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

    Can't speak for other railways but rest assured the WSR's rule book provides for safe working, regardless of how the relevant parties communicate and make decisions. The scenario you outline will not occur on the WSR.

    Steve
     
  1. Absolutely right that communication should start at the earliest opportunity. But nothing's going to move into the blocked section until after the failed train is properly protected. At least that's the case on the WSR.

    Steve
     
  2. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    Anybody driving a loco in an occupied section on the way to render assistance who cannot stop their loco within the distance they can see ahead should quite simply not be on the footplate. The rule book requires confirmation to the signalman that the train has been protected before permitting the assisting engine to enter the section as well as stipulating the measures to be adopted in the event of poor visbility.
     
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  3. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not quite such a 'local' paper

    We are fortunate in our local paper - the West Somerset Free Press - which takes an interest in WSRailway matters.

    Flying Scotsman was front page news when it was here and this is the report from page 6 of last Friday's edition.

    But look closely at the lower right of the report.....:):):)

    IMG_9768.JPG IMG_9769.JPG IMG_8867.JPG IMG_8868.JPG
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I realise every rule book may have differences, but I am surprised that no-one has mentioned that, in the event of a train failing in the single line section, the fireman would go back to the nearest signal box with the single line token, protecting the line with detonators as he goes (and the guard would go in the other direction laying protection). The fireman of the "failed" engine would then ride with the crew of the "rescuing" engine, keeping possession of the token. So not only do you have the protection of detonators, but - if coming from the same direction as the fireman walked - the rescuing engine is carrying the fireman who knows the location of the failure, and has obtained assurance from the driver of the "failed" engine that he won't move the train in the meantime.

    Do other railways have significantly different rules? I'm not sure how exactly you would safely authorise a rescuing engine into a blocked single line section without the fireman first having gone back with the token?

    Tom
     
  5. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    In a word yes - what you describe sounds to have been based on the BR 1950 Rule Book. Without mentioning names the two railways I work on now require the token to remain with the failed train until assistance arrives. I think this is an acknowledgement of the usefulness of mobile telephones, removing the need for a lengthy walk by the fireman & speeding up the required assistance. Both rule books were changed fairly recently. Both still of course require protection (and staff remaining at the protection point to pilot the assisting engine) but at distances commensurate with 25 mph railways not the full BR distances.
     
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  6. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    NOT my scenario at all. I was pointing out that protection is applied first. Then assistance is permitted into section. It was someone else's scenario. I was quite certain that the scenario wouldnt occur on the WSR...that was my point!!!
     
  7. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    The scenario did not exist. You simply chose to misread what I wrote. All I stated was that earlier contact is now possible . Nothing about permitting assistance into the section before protection had been put down & the necessary assurance given.
     
  8. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    You stated that I may be wrong to say that protection is applied before assistance is summoned, because recent rulebooks permit the reporting of the situation whilst protection is being put in place. Taken together those statements led me to ASK whether assisting engines were permitted into section before protection was in place. Thats all. The scenario started with JMA who was stating that people putting protection in place would be at risk from approaching assisting engines, a point which I felt to be silly because if you summon assistance you have already put the protection in place before the assisting engine is allowed into section and therefore you cannot be surprised (at least not on a single track railway controlled by electric token block or similar). I would suggest that once sent to put down protection you know that a) your train is secured and will not be moved and b) you are the only occupant of the single line...therefore you are at considerably less risk than a PW worker on routine patrol who does have to be aware of the possibility of a train at any time and from any direction. Good that we are all agreed that nothing comes into the section until protection is in place and a clear understanding has been arrived at.

    On the subject of chosing to misread... I resent that. Communication is a two way responsibility. I certainly misread your intent, but I certainly did NOT chose to do so.
     
  9. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    No offence meant and I think we are all in agreement - now lets go and safely rescue that failed train!!
     
  10. Ploughman

    Ploughman Part of the furniture

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    25mph
    Downhill gradient.
    Tight curve in a cutting.
    I think a number of locations could quite easily have stopping distances exceeding sighting distance.
     
  11. Yorkshireman

    Yorkshireman Part of the furniture

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    But no sane driver would be approaching at anything like that speed in the circumstances. 25mph is a maximun not a norm!
     
  12. howard

    howard Member

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    25mph, downhill gradient, signal drops as you go past, full brake application, 0-6-0 and 2.5 coaches past the signal. Don't ask how I know! Anyway, once you get anywhere near the site of the failure you are crawling and as you have already passed a section signal at caution (with signalman' permission) you have been driving very cautiously already.
     
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  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Old hat, I'm afraid. As 1472 says, it is from the 1950 BR rule book. Now we (NYMR) just communicate with the signalbox by the most expeditious means, which is either a nearby lineside phone or a mobile. (GSMR on the big railway) The token stays with the loco and the fireman and guard put down assistance protection and wait at that point to conduct the rescue loco to the rain. The rescue loco then takes the token.
     
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  14. Jeff Price

    Jeff Price Member

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    Very sure
    Jeff
     
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  15. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I think that the requirement to go to the box had been removed and replaced by most expeditious means by the time the 1980 rulebook was introduced on the big railway, certainly for electric token.
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It's still our current rule book - call it heritage :)

    I'm sure that rulebook updates have been carefully thought through on the railways concerned with regards safety, but it still feels slightly odd to me that, having allowed a train into a section with the protection of a token, you would then allow a second engine into the same section based only on a conversation, that may be as informal as a mobile phone. No doubt there is a communications protocol to ensure adequate safety.

    (We do a have a concession to modernity that, after laying protection, the Operations Supervisor can liaise by telephone with the fireman to be met by road if in doing so it speeds up a rescue. But you still have to produce the token in person at a signal box before a rescue engine can enter the section).

    Maybe this discussion should move to the Operations MIC area?

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    You're entering a section under caution. You should never exceed a speed that you cannot stop safely in, which in essence is line of sight. That is a fundamental.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The Bluebell is not the only railway to use the 1950 rulebook as a basis. It is up to them and there is no problem with that; it is safe enough. In fact, I quite like it. It does not allow for progress, though. HMRI require that your rulebook is appropriate to your railway and they certainly don't advocate the current Network Rail rulebook which they consider is not appropriate for a heritage railway.
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    At the risk of even further thread drift, how do you manage the transition onto Network Rail? Do you essentially change rule book beyond Grosmont, or do you align parts of the NYMR rule book to match that of Network Rail?

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017
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