Current and Proposed New-Builds

Some of the recent discussion would in principle have a better home in the Locomotive M.I.C. section but I think it's best all kept together here because the various themes in the last few pages have been so jumbled together.

I take this to imply that the Atlantics themselves were poor in this respect.

Does the new build Atlantic retain this "fundamentally flawed" valve gear? If so, that is one good reason for restricting it to heritage line operation where, as noted above, poor valve events aren't too important.

 

Yes, the valve events of all versions of the Ivatt Atlantic (the H2 being one of them) could have been better. H.A.V. Bulleid wrote that while Ivatt senior fully appreciated the importance of free and direct exhaust passages, he simply failed to spot that the short travel valves were restricting some of his designs, in particular the 0-8-2T class.

However, the large Atlantics, being generously over-boilered for their quite small cylinders, could happily be thrashed along at long cutoffs and high speed for as long as the fireman could stand it. In latter years, when they occasionally substituted for Pacifics on some long and heavy trains on the LNER, this turned out to be quite a long time.

 

Somehow, I don't think so.

PH

 

..... and @BrightonBaltic won't like that drive to the leading axle!

 

The Ffestiniog's approach shows a different attitude to the "new build" issue.

The preservation era FR has for a long time spent time and money seeking to improve it's main traffic locos (much to the annoyance of some) - Merddyn Emrys now has different design of boiler with superheating, and is bigger (!), the Penrhyn Ladies have acquired another set of wheels, superheating, one has piston valves, etc., and I don't know where to start with Prince. It is arguable that this is carrying on the tradition of the railway from many years ago of making their locos better and more suited to the task in hand.

Their new builds (leaving aside Lyd, which I think may be a different case), are very much new design locos, not replicas. Stylistically most follow the house style of the earlier locos, and use the same Fairlie principle, but otherwise are modern locos. Earl of Meirionydd is the glorious exception in style and it's 1970's styling is noteworthy in itself.

But the Ffestiniog has had to go down this road for reasons of traffic loadings, reliability and probably economy. It simply could not keep running with just it's original locos in existing form, and with only it's original stock, and carry the passengers that presented themselves. It also has it's "preservation side", with locos like Palmerston (and soon Welsh Pony), and the vintage stock, and likes to bring it's "toys out to play" on special (and regular) occasions. So the best of both worlds in my opinion.

Their ideas and practices probably don't have the same relevance and need in the standard gauge world.

Steve B

 

Ditto their passenger fleet. It's quite odd to see carriages (and soon, a loco) being withdrawn which weren't a gleam in the draughtsman's eye last time I was up that way. Damn..... I'm getting old!

 

As narrow gauge has a history of showing the way to standard gauge, is this a glimmer of a hope that there will be new build rolling stock to relieve the dreary samey stuff which one tends to find on standard gauge lines?

PH

 

Don't I recall a bit of a kerfuffle last time that happened?

 

Yes and that remains one of the most bonkers, mystifying decisions and (in my opinion) not railway preservation but vandalism.

Utterly mad.

 

Jebus wept! Why do you hate railways???

I thought they were all supposed to be spending their money on erecting covered storage, not creating more stock? Do they lengthen the linear scrapyard to accomodate all the replaced dreary samey stuff or just scrap it? Now there's a genius preservation solution.

 

Isn't new building when we've got plenty of perfectly serviceable and appropriate carriages already a little WIBN?

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

You are quite right. Comparable IMHO to rebuilding locomotives into "Thomas the Tank Engine" characters.

Paul H

 

Given the rich variety of British standard gauge rolling stock through the ages I can agree with the sentiment! But be careful what you wish for...

The pattern set on the F&WHR, born out of necessity, has produced several rakes of modern built coaches which, whilst undoubtedly doing the job and the more recent ones are stylish and reasonably comfortable (given the constraints of limited space), they are not particularly heritage in style and are themslves somewhat "samey". This may well suit the majority of the punters - I, on the other hand, will always (if I can) head either for an open coach, or a heritage coach if one is available. I don't mind being bounced around on a hard seat for 2 hours! And they are less crowded - for a reason.

The standard gauge is different. With most such lines "heritage" is much more of the selling point. I personally would discourage the idea of new build whilst there are genuinely historic vehicles awaiting restoration - in many cases the restoration can pretty much amount to new build. This is more a discussion for the "carriage sheds" thread. Resources are few and stretched and I think what resources are available should first be directed towards maintaining, restoring and managing what we have already. (Please folks, take this aspect of the discussion to the more relevant threads!)

Where new build stock could find place is to replicate something important/useful that is now missing - the WLLRs Pickering replicas being a narrow gauge example. In this respect it is no different to new build locos - back on topic!

Steve B

 

Not sure I find them entirely comparable, provided the Thomas conversions are reversible (most, bar the recently discussed Douglas, are).

This however - I have no words. Still makes me angry!

 

Agreed, recall a passing mention somewhere that a 4-8-0 might have been better for the Highland Lines than a 4-6-2 but more of a musing than a dream.
On record as saying that his do everything design would have been a 2-8-2, 5ft 6 drivers and 20 inch cylinders, Br Caprotti. No mention of other detail...

Did they ever get round to putting the Hot tub ... sorry 'emergency water carrier' on the 'VFO' ?

 

Hardly so, for in the case of the Welsh narrow gauge, it is done and it is in service. The L&B follows up rapidly. A significant proportion of railways are educational charities. What better way to educate, apart from travel in real branch line stock if possible, than to travel in replicas of it? Erstwhile main lines can operate main line stuff and remain educational.

PH

 

Thanks for a very thoughtful post. I had in mind the various four wheelers and the curly roofed van meticulously recreated. The latter demonstrates that, in the 1870s, dogs were not allowed in carriages but had to be stuffed into the dog box!

Your point about the "sameyness" of modern vehicles is taken. Porthmadog to Caernarfon in a crowded 1870s 3rd with those evil rounded beadings at shoulder blade height is not an appealing thought. However the W&LLR replicas have amazingly comfortable seating, wooden slats or not.

Paul H

 

I, for one, like BR Mark 1s, and also the early, non air con Mark2s. they do a great job,and have done on heritage railways for years, they are comfortable and look good if well kept and in sensible, original liveries, such as maroon on a 1, blue/grey on a 2.

If I had my own Heritage line (WIBN extreme!!) I would keep two rakes of 1s/2s for normal working and have some pre nationalisation/pre grouping stock for special workings, using them in normal service, at a pinch in times of heavy demand.

 

For me it would be exactly the other way round.

PH