If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

The Border Raider with 60163 - 16/09/17

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by LMarsh1987, Aug 21, 2017.

  1. henrywinskill

    henrywinskill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    3,537
    Occupation:
    Transgender toilet attendant
    Location:
    North East
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Criticism isn't a silly reaction, if you cant back what you say YOU give it a rest bonny lad
     
    peckett likes this.
  2. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    3,861
    Likes Received:
    9,238
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Tobacco manufacturing
    Location:
    Kendal
    That was fast so well done for rising to the bait :)
     
  3. henrywinskill

    henrywinskill Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2005
    Messages:
    2,245
    Likes Received:
    3,537
    Occupation:
    Transgender toilet attendant
    Location:
    North East
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    lol bit slower this time lol
     
  4. Sean Emmett

    Sean Emmett Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    578
    Likes Received:
    489
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol
    Haha! Maybe some locos have to make more noise to drown out the diesel shoving at the back!

    Ok slightly more seriously, when NGG16 87 first ran on the Welsh Highland it made a lot, too much, noise on the climb out of Beddgelert. Magnificent as that was for the sound recorders, it suggested the valve settings weren't quite right.

    So they were sorted, a story in itself, resulting in less noise - and significantly lower coal and water consumption.

    On recent evidence Tornado and Clan Line are pitch perfect.

    Nice to have something in reserve when you have 13 on.
     
  5. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    Quite. From an owner, operator and customer perspective, the more efficient the loco the better. Of course this is more readily accomplished with something built fro scratch and less than 10 years old. However there are examples of original builds which are in top order too.
     
  6. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,771
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A 15CA takes some beating but you'd have a bit of trouble getting one to run over here. ;)
     
  7. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2011
    Messages:
    560
    Likes Received:
    414
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Sat at home
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Can anybody tell me who was driving and firing please? I would assume we had a different set of crew for our return?
     
  8. Linesider

    Linesider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2006
    Messages:
    1,647
    Likes Received:
    1,310
    Footage from Scout Green, Shap summit, Pendragon Castle and Ais Gill Summit:

     
  9. rule55

    rule55 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    219
    Bescot to Carlisle: Keith Murfin (Driver), Tony Jones (Fireman) with TI Gareth Jones to Crewe and Bob Hart onwards to Carlisle. Carlisle to Crewe: Peter Sheridan (Driver), Tim Stedman (Fireman), Jim Smith (TI). I'm not sure of crewing arrangements south of Crewe on return.
     
    dublo6231 and Where's Mazeppa? like this.
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,063
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And all very competently handled as well, if I may say so. Steve Hanczar was also involved on the final leg, I gather.
     
    Fezwig and Enterprise like this.
  11. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,882
    Likes Received:
    3,589
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    TBC
    Location:
    Birmingham & Arley
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Yes, Goostry
    Well that certainly wasn't quiet ! Good job David.
     
    Linesider likes this.
  12. 1020 Shireman

    1020 Shireman Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages:
    2,836
    Likes Received:
    2,677
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Relaxingly retired
    Location:
    Deep in the country
    The Border Raider 16th September 2017

    Oswald T's report and Sean's progress reports 'ontrain' said most things that needed to be said about the Raider but I thought it might be interesting to dig a bit deeper into the climbs as for many of us that's what it was all about.

    1. Coppull

    The first bank of significance is the climb to Coppull, just north of Wigan. Not for the last time on the day we were signal checked on the station approach and speed had fallen to 8.8 at mp5. On the gentle 1 in 705/366 to mp 6 1/4, Tornado had accelerated the 13 coach train to 36 and held this through the station. We heard the roar from the front 11 back as the big engine attacked the 2 miles of 1 in 104 at 40 and actually accelerated to almost 46 at the top this section; to 53 at the top of the 1 1/4 miles of 1 in 366, held 53 over 1/2 mile of 1 in 292 and topped the 1/2 mile of 1 in 115 at 52.

    2. Yealand

    Yealand is the irritating bank just north of Carnforth for CMEs starting from the U&DGL. Not such an issue for non-stoppers. On Saturday we flashed through Carnforth at 75 and passed the summit of the 2 1/2 miles of 1 in 134 at just over 60. Generally CMEs are doing no more than 35 at the top.

    3. Grayrigg

    The aim is always to hit 70+ by mp13, just under 4 miles from Yealand Summit. Not a problem when you top that at 60 and we duly charged into the climb at 74. After 3 miles of 1 in 173 speed was holding at 65 and only fell to 63 after the 3/4 mile of 1 in 153. Then a half expected signal CE38 at yellow came into view. It must have been a bit of a late decision by control as it took them almost 4 minutes to set the road into the loop. After the passage of one very late Pendo, another Pando and a TPE, Tornado restarted the train on the 1 in 176 and 1/2 mile later passed through Oxenholme at 18. Speed picked up to 25 after the final 3/4 mile of 1 in 176 and the noise level rose considerably up the 3/4 mile of 1 in 104 topped at 30. 1/4 mile at 1 in 213 and 3/4 at 124 was topped at 36 and then Tornado set about the 2 1/2 miles of 1 in 131 noisily and accelerated to top the section at just over 43. This took us onto the final 2 miles+ of 1 in 106 and those who claim Tornado is a quiet engine must be on another planet. Very noisily speed only fell slowly to 40.2, and the summit at mp26, after the short 1 in 396 was passed at 40.6, an excellent outcome after the restart from the loop.

    4. Shap

    Not a lot of time to gain speed before the assault on Shap but our speed had risen to 70 as we passed Tebay South, the bottom of the 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 146. Despite working really hard up front, speed fell to 65 at mp33 1/4 as we hit the 4 miles of 1 in 75 to the summit. The quarter speeds were: 33 1/2(30.4); 3/4(56.5); 34 (54.9); 1/4(51.5); 1/2(50.1); 3/4(47.5); 35 (45.6); 1/4(43.6); 1/2(42.2); 3/4(40.4); 36(39); 1/4(37.9); 1/2(36.9); 3/4(36.2); 37(35.5); 1/4(35.1); Summit Board 37 1/2 36.5. A fine climb with 13 up. One of our party was told in Carlisle they used full regulator and 50% cut off, not pushing 60163 too hard as there was still a long way to go....

    5. Ais Gill

    Rarely do we get a non-stop run through Appleby. On Saturday we did and passed 277 1/4 on the platform at 58.5. At the bottom of the 1 in 176d we passed Ormeside at 62 and began the climb proper with 3 1/2 miles of 1 in 100. Just under 2 miles in we dived into Helm tunnel at 43.5 and as the weather closed in dropped to 38.4 over Griseburn Viaduct. Here the grade eases to 1 1/2 miles of 1 in 166 where our speed rose to 41.5; then to 48 up the 1 in 200/220 to Crosby Garrett / on the 3/4 mile level stretch we got to a max of 52 as we dived into Crosby Garrett Tunnel. Out of the tunnel we hit the 2 1/2 miles of 1 in 100 to Kirkby Stephen. We crossed Smardale Viaduct at 51 and speed fell slowly to 43 as we approached KS. There was a slight pick up to 43 on the 1/2 mile of 1 in 264 past the signal box at 266 1/2 but then it was back on to almost 3 miles of 1 in 100. At mp265 speed had fallen to 39.5; Birkett Tunnel Nth 37.3; mp264 38.5. The grade eased to 1 in 330 for 3/4 of a mile and we took 44 onto the final 3 1/2 miles from mp263 to the summit as Ais Gill. It looked good for a fast summit speed but the railhead conditions were poor in the usual Cumbrian weather. The engine wasn't pushed in the conditions and speed fell to just below 40 at mp216 1/2. Just over a mile further on we crossed Ais Gill Viaduct at 37 and dipped to 35.4 at the summit of the climb at mp260 1/4. The official summit board was passed at 39.1. Excellent in the conditions with 13 up.

    6. The bonus climb of Standedge

    Long time since Standedge was seriously 'done' by steam. Our last run was in 2012 before WCR started diesel assistance on the once popular RTC Scarborough Spa Expresses. So what did Tornado do with 13? Disappointingly we had yellows on the 1 in 147 approach to Huddersfield and our speed dropped to 15 on the 1 in 101 over Huddersfield Viaduct, turning to green through the station, passed at 22 on the 1/2 mile of 1 in 279. Tornado accelerated up the 1 in 96 through Huddersfield and Gledholt Tunnels to exit the latter at 25, and passed the end of the 1 in 96 at 26. Then began the 6 1/2 miles of 1 in 105, with a short section in the middle of 1 in 111. Tornado really showed her mettle on this long climb in difficult conditions. We heard plenty of noise on the climb 11 back as the big green mean machine accelerated up the bank. We crossed Milne Viaduct, 1 1/2 miles in at 36; Golcar Viaduct just over 3 miles in at 41.2; roared through Slaithwaite approx. mp 21 1/4, 3 1/2 miles in at just under 43. Then speed fell slowly as the railhead conditions worsened. Mp20 was passed at 40; mp19 at 35.4 and Marsden, the climbers' summit, approx mp18 3/4, was crested at just under 34. Again, a seriously good strong climb with 13 up after the signal check approaching Huddersfield.

    So 6 seriously good climbs in the day. What more could we ask for?

    Footnotes

    I must admit to finding many comments about the lack of noise from Tornado somewhat spurious. Despite being 11 back we heard plenty of sound on the major climbs and surely mainline steam is about performance not just noise??

    According to my calculations, the Border Raider clocked up 454 1/2 miles in a day with challenging climbs and often poor railhead conditions and Tornado achieved it with more than some style. Until Clan Line gets around the network more and takes on seriously challenging railtours like the Raider there is only one King of the Mainline and we were privileged to travel behind it on Saturday.

    For the RTC/WCR fan club - I'm actually a member - we only get 174 and a bit miles of steam for £6 less on the CME. The Crewe Circular on the Raider was approx. 331 miles of superb steam performance.

    So did the Border Raider live up to expectations? Yes, and some; a view shared by non-enthusiasts and enthusiasts I spoke to alike.

    From, my point of view, I got my calculations wrong again. I thought it was our 50th trip behind the 'new build' express machine; but it was in fact our 53rd. We passed 11,000 miles behind 60163 on the journey north and ended the day on 11,353 and a bit miles behind the big mean green machine. As a Western Man with a long association with 6024, (you remember 6024, a GWR King? Perhaps you're too young...) and I never thought that would happen!!!

    So, what of the future? 90 mph running? Yes, next year. But as Tornado was going as well when we pulled into TBP at 2301 as it was when we left at 0703, what about an attempt on the 500 mile mark in a day? A trip too far?? Perhaps. But wouldn't that be spectacular and not just 'epic?'

    Can't thank the A1 Group, DB Crews, UKRT and yes, NR enough for an amazing day out. Well worth setting out at 0430 Saturday morning and not getting back home until 0030 Sunday morning, which come to think of it, wasn't the longest 'day out' we've had 'doing' steam in preservation!!
     
    thickmike, Matt37401, PaulT and 13 others like this.
  13. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,445
    Likes Received:
    9,143
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And I did say 'Don't shoot me only saying what was said by others.'
     
  14. 26D_M

    26D_M Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2009
    Messages:
    4,416
    Likes Received:
    1,681
    And it was a feeble excuse the first time you wrote it ........
     
  15. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2010
    Messages:
    1,739
    Likes Received:
    5,679
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brampton, Cumbria
    Does anyone have a record of the longest (distance) steam leg tours? It would be interested to see say the top 10 for comparison (loco, operator, region, duration etc).
     
  16. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,882
    Likes Received:
    3,589
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    TBC
    Location:
    Birmingham & Arley
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think it was the Lowlander which was mentioned well up thread.
     
  17. Oswald T Wistle

    Oswald T Wistle Well-Known Member Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,332
    Likes Received:
    5,380
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    ESI Eng Manager (Retd)
    Location:
    NE Lancs
    An excellent report, as always, taking it to another level. Seems as though there were several NP contributors in the eleventh coach. Tornado is a magnificent machine - if only it was red and made more noise ;)
     
    rule55 likes this.
  18. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,991
    Likes Received:
    1,039
    Occupation:
    A Thingy...
    Aye, the NP gang seem to stick together for that was where I was too...
     
  19. 61994

    61994 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2014
    Messages:
    322
    Likes Received:
    501
    Gender:
    Male
    Out of interest, I seem to remember Tornado running a tour from Crewe to Glasgow a few years back, how many miles did that clock up? Seem to remember it didn't take a direct route..
    This certainly looked like a tour not to be missed and would be a shame if something similar wasn't to be tackled again. After the announcement of Standedge being added I seriously wish I could've been off work for this run but seeing Tornado blast past Diggle Jnc box was good enough in the circumstances.
    Thanks to all on board for the lengthy reports! Great reading :)
     
  20. Where's Mazeppa?

    Where's Mazeppa? Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2013
    Messages:
    485
    Likes Received:
    494
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Just to reprise my original post #9 on this thread, this was actually achieved by the "Caledonian Tornado" Crewe-Glasgow and return in September 2011. Had the trip been confined to the WCML, by my reckoning it would have clocked up 486 miles, but on the outward leg it was routed via Stockport-Denton-Ashton Moss Jc-Manchester Victoria-Bolton-Chorley, so adding a shade over 17 miles to the more direct WCML route to deliver a total of 503 miles on the days aggregate mileage.

    So definitely not a trip too far, although I can't think of many other logical itineraries that could be structured in a way that would give this sort of number without imposing a massive commitment upon crews, staff and stewards - KGX-Newcastle and return, perhaps?

    Anyway, just to add my own words of thanks for the totally absorbing descriptions,analysis, assessments and perspectives on the six climbs. Makes fascinating reading!

    Edit- looks like 61994 beat me to it by eight minutes with this one.
     
    MarkinDurham, 26D_M and 61994 like this.

Share This Page