If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Rosedale

    Rosedale Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2015
    Messages:
    456
    Likes Received:
    435
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Shipbourne
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    To be fair to the Bluebell when you're actually on the platforms at HK you can't see much of the demic stock in the sidings because the view is blocked by the vehicles stabled in Pl 5. The real aesthetic problem at that station is the external condition of the sleeping cars.
     
  2. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I did say they weren't the worst, but that is only faint praise.

    PH
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  4. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

  5. David R

    David R Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages:
    1,018
    Likes Received:
    1,386
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The sleeping cars have been repainted (admittedly only in bonda primer red) on the public side this summer. There is a short to medium term plan to replace them. Also the removal of stock to OP4 offers a possible opportunity to site them somewher a bit less obtrusively - as I said OP4 is a massive opportunity to clean up the site.

    David R
     
  6. Bill Drewett

    Bill Drewett Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    277
    Likes Received:
    845
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Bristol
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's what I used to think. Then I saw Tom's photo on the previous page and realised that long lines of shabby vehicles awaiting repair were a quintessential part of the period Horsted Keynes scene. Turns out that the LBSCR were gricers too (at least according to PH's idiosyncratic definition). All true preservationists should demand the immediate return of their OP4 donations.
     
  7. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2008
    Messages:
    2,784
    Likes Received:
    658
    It would be something if they removed all those carriages, trimmed the hedges and found a line of old LBSC steam engines...
     
  8. Hirn

    Hirn Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2015
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    295
    Gender:
    Male
    Now that really would be something.
     
  9. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Well, except in the regimes of Stroudley and the younger Billinton it does seem the L.B.S.C.R. had more locomotives than they knew how to deal with. Just like gricers indeed.

    PH
     
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Both Stroudley and Billinton Snr had the "advantage" of making good the shortcomings of the Craven Era.

    Others will be far bettet placed than I to detail the recovery of the LBSC from near bankruptcy, but I've always suspected John Chester Craven has always carried rather more than his share of culpability for the company's predicament. Nowt like a good scapegoat, eh?
     
  11. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    3,559
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The real reason for the Horsted Keynes " locodump" was that between 1905 and 1909, Douglas Earle Marsh, the new broom at Brighton, began a major expansion and rebuilding of the rather chaotic and obsolete locomotive works there, and engines awaiting overhaul started to stack up. Because there was no storage space at Brighton, they had to wait out their turn in whatever spare space could be found. I think Horley was used as well. Some engines were withdrawn whilst stored, and never turned a wheel in anger again.
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  12. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I thought this started before Marsh arrived but am most open to correction.

    Paul H
     
  13. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Not to mention a labour relations situation in both the workshop and running shed which was far from harmonious and which - even being charitable - with which Marsh's personality didn't help.

    I think you could make a constructive study between Dugald Drummond and Marsh, and how both of them -faced with cramped and inadequate workshop facilities - attempted to resolve the situation.

    Tom
     
    paulhitch likes this.
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I agree to an extent - I've always thought Craven has been dealt with unkindly by history. I wouldn't claim him to be one of the great locomotive superintendents, even just from his era, but he was also far from the disaster he is often portrayed. Many of his locos were effective by the standards of the day and had working lives - 25 years or so - that were well up to the standards pertaining at the time on other railways.

    Clearly he was working at a time in which there was unprecedented technical development in locomotives, meaning even comparatively new locos rapidly became outmoded or too small. The whole railway was rapidly increasing in route and traffic mileage, meaning an unending need for new locomotives. And the craft of locomotive construction and maintenance was developing, set against that rapidly growing demand. Building up internal build capacity obviously took time and major capital investment, but going to external builders put you at the mercies (especially for delivery timescales) of an industry that had more work than it could cope with. In those circumstances, most would have struggled.

    Probably unfairly, the relative lack of information about Craven tends to mean that he is judged primarily on the end of his career and downfall on the LBSCR, ignoring the main body of it.

    Tom
     
    andrewshimmin and 30854 like this.
  15. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    Òne has to be a bit careful of "revisionism". His own family do not seem to have cared for him very much, so personal unlikeability may be a factor in assessing him. A bit like F.W. Webb perhaps?

    PH
     
    30854 likes this.
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    To a degree that is right - the pressures were starting to build up under Billinton, probably contributing to his untimely demise - but the way Marsh handled it was also less than ideal.

    In all fairness, the job of Locomotive Superintendent was simply too big for one man, comprising responsibility for the Locomotive, Carriage and Wagon Workshops, the running sheds, shipping, external machinery such as turntables, cranes, water supply etc. The LB&SCR belatedly split the C&W Superintendent role from the Locomotive Superintendent and opened a new C&W workshop at Lancing, freeing up space at Brighton to expand the loco works and at the same time reducing the responsibility of the job; but they probably made those changes at least a decade too late.

    There were also severe financial constraints. At that time (1900 - 1910), Victoria station was being rebuilt; the loco works required major investment; the mainline was being quadrupled; suburban electrification was being introduced and there were other big capital projects. So Marsh's tenure is against a constant backdrop of penny-pinching wherever he could. Some of the labour relations issues in the works were against wage demands and the desire to introduce more efficient and flexible ways of working (there were other issues as well) and pay was always an issue in a town that was expensive to live in. In addition, Marsh also had many people in the workshop on short-time and tried to stop overtime payments - even though there was a maintenance backlog - simply to save money or because the redevelopment meant certain shops had to be closed while redevelopment went on. In short, it wasn't a happy time though the blame should perhaps not solely rest on the shoulders of one man.

    Tom
     
    30854 likes this.
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'd agree revisionism is often an issue, especially where dealing with events long after people have passed from living memory. Craven's personality certainly seems less than endearing and his loco policies questionable (to put it mildly), but to hold the man up as the prime reason behind the parlous state of LBSC finances is, at best, simplistic. The debate over one company official has definitely kept much of the spotlight off many decisions taken by the Brighton Line's board around that time. Not something which could ever happen these days, of course..... no siree..... ;)

    Innit weird that Webb's reputation is so intimately tied up with his compounding system that his successful and long lived designs do so little to balance generally held views on that gentleman? I'd best save expanding on that for another thread. To echo Paul's sentiment....A bit like Edward Thompson perhaps?
     
  18. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,761
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Those who worked with Webb certainly respected him. Most of his locos were satisfactory, some good, a few excellent (allowing for their time and the LNWR senior management's views on operational matters). His management of Crewe works was outstanding. He probably knew more about manufacture and did more to improve it than any other CME. He was a philanthropist and invested in the education of the men.
     
    Jamessquared likes this.
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Which if nothing else shows just how broad the role of Locomotive Superintendent was in those days.

    I was reading a biography of the older Billinton the other day. Quite apart from the locomotive orders, carriages, wagons, machinery and so on, he seemed to have to deal with an almost never ending list of shipping issues after frequent minor and major incidents in the channel. On top of all that dealing with the running side, right down to adjudicating on disciplinary and other issues of almost trivial importance. It's a wonder he had time to design any locos!

    Tom
     
  20. Mark Thompson

    Mark Thompson Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Messages:
    1,429
    Likes Received:
    3,559
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    E sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And all before laptops, mobiles and email! It puts todays work ethic into perspective. alright.
    Poor Mrs Billinton must have wondered who on earth this bloke was who dropped in occasionally...
     

Share This Page