Current and Proposed New-Builds

Nowt wrong with the chain-drive Pacifics that a bit of refinement and improved maintenance didn't/couldn't fix. The irony is that the unrebuilt Light Pacifics were the most reliable class on BR in the 60s, and the MNs at their most capricious and unpredictable were no worse than the Stanier Duchesses. Yeah, they burned a fair bit of coal, but even with two firemen, Rugby never did find the upper limit of the MN's steaming capacity...

 

If you're going to build a Dreadnought, the 4-6-4T offers far more of a USP. The 4-6-0 is basically a Lord Nelson but worse in every respect.

4-6-0s to build - N15X, G&SWR Manson, HR/CR River, HR/CdFd l’État Drummond Castle, more HR Jones Goods, GCR Robinson B1, GER Holden B12/4, Egyptian NBL postwar 4-6-0 and/or its 1920s Linke Hoffman 4-4-2/4-6-0 predecessor (if any records survive!), CR McIntosh '55' (ideal for preserved lines - short wheelbase, 19" x 26" cylinders, two sizes of 175psi saturated boiler to choose from, 5'6" driving wheels, pretty!), LSWR Urie H15...

...and NOT the bloody Claughton!

If you're going to build and attempt to remedy a type which was a failure the first time round, then the Caledonian's 903 "Cardean" (inside 2-cylinder) and 955 (3-cylinder) types have to be the priorities - at least they were (very!) good-looking...

 

There's a lot of crap talked about the Spitfire and Hurricane builds coming out of Duxford etc... even the ones coming out of beach wreck sites still incorporate a substantial amount of original material. One of them even managed to salvage the original windscreen and seat covering (and still satisfied the CAA as to its airworthiness!).

 

Why cant we have a Claughton??!!

 

Don't know where you got that from. H.A. Ivatt died long before Bulleid had anything to do with the Southern Railway.

PH

 

How about because they were crap and didn't even compensate for it by being pretty? If you want to see an LNWR passenger type running, the KGV group would doubtless appreciate your support...

 

One reason is that it appears to be difficult to raise enough money to keep existing locomotives in traffic.

PH

 

I will have to re-locate my copy of H.A.V.B.'s "Bulleid of the Southern" which details it all. Looking at the dates, I must be quite mistaken - so just why DID the Ivatts end up in HH? It was a dull commuter town even then...

 

Paul, you know damn well that argument doesn't work. The people who made Tornado happen would not have restored Blue Star (or, at a more sensible size, a couple of ex-Barry Small Prairies) instead. New-builds attract their own support that simply would never be available for restorations or overhauls. Besides, what is more responsible - build a new 4-6-0 or keep on pushing 150-year-old locomotives through overhauls?

 

Just try Google. Plenty about the Ivatts pere et fils there. Arguably two of the most underrated locomotive engineers.

PH

 

Looks like it's popcorn time on this thread now ...

Tom

 

Probably because they were "dull commuters" too. And having spent my childhood nearby I remember it as a lovely part of the world to grow up in - except of course even in the early sixties steam was few and far between all those electrics on the Brighton line.

Peter James

 

The only decent KGV I know had 10 14" guns...

 

How about you just admit that all of those are naff and get on with a B16?

 

Yes please - B16/3 for the most sensible choice...

 

Apropos nothing in particular, Blackie Ivatt Associates of Steying is an Ivatt of that ilk.

 

What is Ivatt Sr known for, other than the Atlantics (which were never quite as good as their Brighton sisters anyway)? The N2 is more Gresley than Ivatt... there's a small saddle-tank... and the rest? Some heavy mineral 0-8-0s of no real distinction (and an 0-8-2T derivative designed to haul suburban London passenger trains, but which was immediately sent to Yorkshire as it turned out overweight)... the 4-4-2T certainly wasn't in the same league as those of the NBR C16 or LBSCR I3. The D1 4-4-0s were rough riders and poor steamers, the D2s were unremarkable and suffered chronic frame cracking, as did the D4s, which got rebuilt into D3s to try and fix their steaming problems, the various 0-6-0s were sound mixed-traffic locos but achieved no great note (the best of them had only 75% of the power of the GER Hill J20, for example). The related N1 0-6-2T, intended to replace the R1 0-8-2T was OK but also turned out too heavy for the suburban London line it was designed for...

As for Ivatt Jr, he ruined the looks of the last few Duchesses and turned out arguably the ugliest locos ever to run in Britain, however effective they may have been - did they really need to be that fugly?!