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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the Caledonian 4-6-2Ts:
    - There are some nice photos and a bit of info in "Illustrated History of LMS Locomotives, Vol 3" by Essery & Jenkinson (or vice versa), which coincidentally is my current bedtime book...
    - they did some good work but weren't outstanding. Likewise the 60 Class 4-6-0 which they were derived from. Sadly Pickersgill's large engines weren't great, the 3-cylinder 4-6-0s in particular were lousy. All his engines were good looking, though. When he stuck to the McIntosh formula, e.g. with the 4-4-0s and 0-6-0s he did much better.
    - we already have a preserved Caley suburban tank loco, a 0-4-4T, at the BKR. It's due back in service soon.
    - we also have a Caledonian 0-6-0 (very typical) and 4-2-2 (very atypical).
    - what's missing from the Caley line up is a 4-4-0, although the preserved NBR 4-4-0 has many similarities with the Caledonian ones.
    - what's really missing from Scottish preserved steam is a GSWR tender locos (the only survivor is a very atypical 0-6-0T shunting loco), followed perhaps by a Highland passenger loco (most of their locos were passenger, and none survive).

    Not that I wouldn't welcome a Caley 4-6-2T if you built one, mind.
     
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  2. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

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    With that vote of confidence.......
    I'll go and start my Facebook group now ;-)

    Chris
     
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  3. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I can completely relate.

    I have built up quite a library of railway related books when I have been looking into various (mostly locomotive related) things.

    Like you say, everyone has to have a hobby, and I really enjoy sitting down with books, especially old ones and learning new things!

    Chris
     
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  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm already down for a Brighton K.... as soon as Camelot get the damned numbers right!

    A Dunalastair would be a welcome addition. One of the Belgian derivatives 18.051 survives in preservation as does one of the 'Atlantic' tank versions 16.042 (the Caley never had those!). The National Museum is in Schaerbeek, but whether one or both are on display I don't know.

    http://www.trainworld.be/en

    Theres a piccie of the '16' on the Wikipedia page on the Dunalastairs.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonian_Railway_721_Class
     
  5. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    I don't know the details of why, but The Beyer-Garratts used by Queensland Rail cost 3x more to overhaul than the next most powerful class.

    As for a Leader new build, why would anyone want to travel behind a steam loco that doesn't look like a steam loco!
     
  6. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    Bar none?

    How about Dean's No 9 with the largest drivers of a standard gauge tank?

    At least the B&E ten footers could be run on Didcot's demonstration line.
     
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  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Re: Queensland. IIRC the QR, like the SAR/ZASM had a pretty weird way of calculating unit costs for repairs based on mileage with no account taken of either speeds involved or loads hauled. You'd expect twin 'engine units' to cost more than a smaller 'normal' loco, but given you'd need 2 (or more) little'uns to shift the same load as a stonking great 'double mountain' Garrett, you're probably at least 75% of the way to an answer. As well as heavy coal trains (from Callide coalfields) they were used on full blown mainline express (and yes...I do know the term is relative!) passenger services.

    Re: Leader...Well they do.....and it can haul an impressive number of 'em... here's the evidence! (I love this clip!) BTW.... check out the clip listed immediately below. It's the real 'Leader' engine unit on test. The 'figure of eight' motion of the sleeve valves is quite mesmeric.



    I saw this beastie in embryonic form (no boiler) many moons ago. I've got to get to Worthing on a day when it's running. Can't honestly say I blame Kevan for using four sets of modified Walschaerts gear derived from a 5in gauge 9F design.... which he told me himself. The chain drive is real enough.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    The ideal "new build" project. It never did a day of useful work in its original form.

    PH
     
  9. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Download the document. It has unified drive and the author states his case quite plainly. His view was that if you're going to build a new engine with mainline running as a primary objective then you were better off building a really good one. So, in order to achieve this aim his proposal owes little or nothing to Thompson/Peppercorn. This man could and did produce record breaking engines.
     
  10. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    I will love to read but where and is it expensive?
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I have a copy and am very familiar with the proposal. The original author's proposal quite clearly gives a locomotive derived from the Peppercorn A1 - overall dimensions, wheelbase, much of the boiler design. There were several items the trust DID incorporate into Tornado (streamlined passages, roller bearings, and a few other details). The original proposal was considered too much of a development away from the aim of building the next Peppercorn A1.

    The point I was making was that the starting point clearly was not a Gresley machine: it was the Peppercorn design. That it was several magnitudes developed from Peppercorn's machine is an indisputable fact. Nevertheless, it was envisaged as the new, modern day A1.

    Porta does however state it was to be in line with the original Gresley ethos on several occasions: not quite the same as starting with a Gresley design.

    You can see details of the full proposal here: https://www.martynbane.co.uk/modernsteam/ldp/60163/60163.htm

    But here for expediency, are all of the suggestions made by Porta:

    As you can see, there's a lot to go through. The thorny issue of grandfather's rights and testing prior to acceptance on the mainline remains a big question mark over new design as opposed to recreating and modifying slightly older designs.

    The success of Tornado should be measured into being able to be accepted to run on the national network.

    A new locomotive design, even if marginally based on the Peppercorn A1, would have had a completely different acceptance process to go through that might have been exponentially more involving, particularly with mileage accrued off the mainline.

    To date, Tornado has only had one real major issue throughout her working life - staying arrangements. To date, the fixes developed early on in her mainline career have proved satisfactory.

    It is nearly ten years since she first emerged onto the scene in Loughborough in grey paint and ran her first trains. I remember it like it was yesterday! Waiting up and staying early doors at Quorn and Woodhouse station to see her arrive. It was magnificent.

    She has been, without a shadow of a doubt, one of the most reliable steam locomotives on the national network, and now has many achievements to her name, including 100mph running.

    She is not as Porta envisaged - but she has exceeded all expectations and that is down to the excellence of the setup at the A1 Trust and associated individuals and groups. Long may she run.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  12. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Now OK no 9 did have its minor problems, like trouble staying on the track, but as its not unfashionable to attempt to design out the faults of the original when doing new builds that could surely be addressed. Fix the trailing bogie (maybe make the last axle radial) and use the standard DeGlehn/Churchward bogie for the other and it would surely be just fine on the demonstration line with a couple of coaches - and a lot more attractive looking than a certain other abject failure.
    [removes tongue from cheek]
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  13. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    Thank You
    I lost interest when when reading 24 inch cylinders driving middle wheels and running within shrinking UK loading gauge.
     
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Charming...:)
     
  15. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    To digress further - and I only brought up the QR Garratt example because it tweaked my memory when there was some discussion on the overhaul costs of the LMS Garratts. In horrendously simplistic terms, the QR Garratts were about 50% more powerful than the BB18 1/4 class they were introduced to supplement, so depending on how they were worked it could possibly mean up to 50% better revenue earning potential? They were a logical progression for dealing with heavier train loads on a network hamstrung by its 3'6" guage with axle loading restrictions. Unfortunately they were not the magic bullet and very much unloved by firemen! One interesting feature is a flangless front driving wheel which I struggle to get my head around.

    Getting back to overhaul costs, especially in preservation, Garratts make an unrealistic new build let alone one that is already extant. Case in point is the one remaining QR Garratt No. 1009, which has actually run in preservation, but now sits in all its impressive lifelessness in the heritage fleet museum - well and truely down at the very bottom the overhaul queue and most likely destined to stay there due to a vague figure of somewhere around the $6 million (£3.7 million) mark for a return to steam.
     
  16. Rosedale

    Rosedale Member

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    Over on RMWeb somebody's converted a Tri-ang Dean Single into a decent model of No.9.

    http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1405/entry-14782-william-deans-express-tank/
     
  17. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    Reading this again Gandhi's comments on democracy comes to mind: "What a great idea"
    On the single Lemprex I have severe doubts whether it would be better than the double Kylchap, it is simply
    not possible with less orifices.
    Kind regards
    Jos Koopmans
     
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  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps you're confusing the postwar QR Garratt with the wartime Australian Standard Garratt? All main railway workshops (and many subcontractors) were tasked with production of these, with about two dozen foisted on the QR for wartime use. Of the 65 built, eight ASGs were never assembled. Their appalling quality and performance was one of the main reasons for the postwar QR order.

    Flangeless leading coupled and driving wheels were certainly a feature of the ASG, locomotives so un-good that VR's CME refused to fit Newport Works plates to those built there. After WWII exigencies 36 major faults ID'd by a Royal Commission (no less!) needed rectifiying before WAGR footplate staff would run them. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised to learn other lines' staff refused to work 'em either. WAGR ran some for about 10 years, a few ended up on the Emu Bay line, but even modified, they were hardly a resounding triumph. With a mere three months put into the initial design, that's not really too surprising.

    I've seen nothing to suggest that the postwar BP order (actually subcontracted to Société Franco-Belge) had any unusual - in Garratt terms - features. Pretty much the same general design as the South Australian '400' (402 & 409 survive) and East African '60' classes (6006 survives). Your assessment of 1009s likely return sounds spot on. Fusible plug incidents (like the one which sidelined the loco in the 90s) tend to be expensive to put right.

    The clearest shot I can find of 1009s 'undercarriage' is this one:
    The Good...
    qr_bg.jpg.cf.jpg
    Amazingly enough, one complete ASG survives:
    The Bad....and the Ugly
    th(6).jpg
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  19. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    Something here doesn't add up! I hadn't given this much thought until today. I had read before that the ASG's didn't have a flange on the lead driver so imagine my surprise when a couple of months ago, whilst looking at QR 1009 in the flesh, I did a double take - there is no flange on it's lead driver either. I even ran my hand over it just to be sure! (Both lead front wheel and lead rear wheel if you follow my drift)

    So thinking about it now leads me to two conclusions:

    1. Both classes have the same feature? Which boggles the mind, considering it was reportedly one of the ASG's more un-redeeming features, and that they were built in 1943, 7 years before the QR Garratts, and QR used and intensely disliked the ASGs. So, for QR then to place an order to B-P in 1950 for 30 Garratts with the same feature....I struggle to think it possible! However, one should never underestimate the possibility that a state run railway could cock things right up!

    Or,

    2. Someone got their Garratts mixed up and has put the wrong information out there. Unfortunately, I've not seen the surviving ASG or likely to any time soon to confirm, and close up pictures of driving wheels seem hard to track down - my own of 1009 show no discernible detail in that area.

    :)
     
  20. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    And where would you put the driver on this interesting little engine???? :)
     

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