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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Well, it was progress of sorts - outside gear! Yes, you would normally expect better economy - but a Garratt was really still two locomotives - just extremely close-coupled and fed from one boiler! Fair enough on time/cost/unions; I had forgotten that aspect of it. One does wonder, though, what we would have seen, had Beyer Peacock been given free rein over the design.
     
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  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    sarclass_gl_large.jpg.cf.jpg
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Briefly, the idea of a cab forward steam locomotive was good, and offered potential. So were the attempts to maximise efficiency. It was however out of time-as you rightly say, the Ivatt twins showed the way forward- and therefore didn't go forward.

    I maintain my views of the Garratts. A mediocre design perpetuated deficiencies for 30 odd years, helping with other factors to hold the railways back.

    Of the two, if a new build project came along, I know which I'd be interested to support. However, that is in the context of considering both to be minor evolutionary dead ends of limited historical significance.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  4. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    An important point, too often forgotten.
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Can't help thinking that if folk brand the LMS Garratts as failures then what words do they have for the Bulleid Pacifics in their original form?
     
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  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The consistency in railway enthusiasts remains in their inconsistency to apply a a consistent argument to anything.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    You've probably just defined an enthusiast, as distinct from an engineer ...

    Tom
     
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  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    In America, Cab forwards had already been done a number of times and were not found lacking in many respects; but the Leader is a dual cab design, not a cab forward. It was and remains a reasonable idea to have a cab at each end of a locomotive, but it is not essential and this is clear from the sheer number of centre cab diesel and electric locomotives that have existed in railway history (and are still used today).

    A not very efficient design or project all round.

    I still find it incredible that with Leader on his CV, the entire Bulleid Pacifics and their known problems (and mass rebuilding) Bulleid is so revered as a locomotive engineer. The Q1 was an austerity driven update of an existing design and that remains, to me, his most successful and least controversial design. Not a patch on the Thompson B1 or the Hawksworth Pannier Tanks or any of Ivatt's designs for the LMS around the same time. Three engineers who all did similar jobs with varying budgets and produced better overall work, IMO.
     
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  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Fair point.
     
  10. Rosedale

    Rosedale Member

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    The Q1 has a major design flaw though, which is that the profile of the tender is such that visibility when running in reverse is lousy. Not a very sensible choice for a maid of all work 0-6-0. The MNs and light pacifics suffered (like Thompson's coaches) from the poor quality of a lot of the materials available during and after the war, and whereas the Leader was seriously flawed Bulleid's second attempt at the same basic idea was significantly more successful and was abandoned because he retired. The Leader project was also not helped by the bad press which it received, not unlike the APT-P thirty years later.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Very fair point.

    To be fair - almost all of the major railways suffered this in various ways. Thompson's production L1s seriously suffered from this in the axle box area - when in later life these were modified the L1s were almost good.

    Arguably the Irish peat burner is more of a double fairlie with a cab at each end. No sleeve valves, two boilers, two cylinder arrangement that happens to share the wheel arrangement and double cabs with Leader and not a lot else. Particularly where the fuel is concerned: coal compared to peat required additional components that Leader didn't have.

    One could reasonably argue that a very bad project got very deserved bad press! The money wasted on the scheme and scrapping a partially built second one plus other odds and ends when it was discovered the first wasn't very good in the first place.

    I don't think that's in any way comparable with APT-P. That train was very good, did the job asked of it, and gave its technology to the wider industry and lives on today in the Pendolinos more or less. You can argue reasonably that the bad press for the APT-P was undeserved - but Leader? Come on.
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Leader v Garratt.....What's worse? Unbalanced offset boilers or crappy bearings? Hideously hot fireback boilers or naff steam passages?

    Whatever the myriad faults of the 'Leader' project, at least it was an attempt to look forward at a time when the question of reliance on imported fuels concerned the government who authorised the spend. A couple of decades earlier, unnecessary meddling by LMS bigwigs successfully buggered up a decent proven concept for no better reason than scent marking their territories. In neither case was the best outcome acheived.

    So the Garratts, as built, worked (if you ignore the saga of the rotary coal hoppers!). That they put in a quarter of a century on heavy coal trains is indisputable. Unfortunately, so is the cash figure you could attach to a quarter of a century's excessive coal consumption and heavier maintenance costs, due not to the concept, but to the meddling of those LMS bigwigs.

    The fact is, heavy freight was the most profitable LMS operation, so as long as the trains ran, there wasn't any percieved problem. Had someone gone up to Lord Stamp and pointed out how much profit was being needlessly burned in the coal hungry firebox of these beasties, something would probably have been done. Chalk another one up to the empire builders!

    New build of either an LMS Garratt or a Leader? ........ Why, in the name of all that's holy, would anyone want to waste time, effort or money on either? To what end?

    If a working Garratt floats your boat, head to Snowdonia or Norfolk (and fairly soon, to Aberystwyth). If it's a standard gauge one you want, 'William Francis' needs friends... it could be restored and put through a century's worth of 10 year strip downs for less than the cost of a new LMS Garratt.

    If you hanker for a 'Leader', there is one, in 5" gauge, built by Kevan Ayling. If you don't believe me, look here: https://www.worthingmodelengineers.co.uk/the-leader/ . There are clips on YouTube too.

    If you really can't do without either as a full size loco, my advice is to go and see a good psychiatrist. It'll be cheaper than the second mortgage on every home owned by you and members of your extended family. Into that bargain, also, said family won't have you declared insane and carted off. Well, not for that particular reason, at any rate!
     
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  13. Rosedale

    Rosedale Member

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    36001 performed very well on test, all things considered. It was free steaming, powerful, and fast, and from a management point of view its main operational flaw was its limited water capacity. One of 36001's chief problems was that, for reasons which have never been explained, during testing of one of the power bogies the Brighton works foreman ordered that it be thrown into reverse at full speed, thereby knackering it. It was never right again and this meant that BR never dared use the engine in service. It is interesting to speculate as to what would have happened had 36002 been completed.

    Leader was almost certainly a blind alley, and I'm not for a moment suggesting that had the other four also entered service and proved themselves then we'd all be riding around behind Leaders by now. However, with an exiled designer, a risk- and media-averse management, an LMS CME, a hostile press and thus a hostile government, and a prototype which was wrecked before it was even outshopped, the project never really stood a chance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    http://www.bulleidlocos.org.uk/_ldr/ldrClass.aspx

    Does make interesting reading. Presumably that photograph above is 36003, the incomplete third Leader that was scrapped.
     
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  15. Rosedale

    Rosedale Member

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    Number One bogie is indeed the one which was pointlessly damaged while on test at Brighton.
     
  16. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    The class 60 was a very interesting locomotive.
    Accordig to mr Cox and more recently mr Adrian Tester, frame breakage was a serious trouble rigth to the end of steam even for the standard classes.
    The 60 class had no broken frame .
    Is there some frame drawings still existant?
    It would be interesting to compare it to a class five or B1
     
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  17. Chris86

    Chris86 Well-Known Member

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    Do share?!

    My knowledge on the Scottish locos is scant at best, and I'd be keen to learn more?!

    Chris
     
  18. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    A point about those American cab forwards - they were oil fired, weren't they? One reason for the UK persevering with steam, in the form of the assorted BR Standards, was that the country had to import oil at the time, and there was no money for it. On the other hand, we were (and still are) sat on hundreds of years' worth of coal
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Good question. Given that the last examples weren't withdrawn until 1953, it's possible some drawings may still exist in the depths of the NRM.

    The point about rugged construction is one which applies to the Southern moguls too. Billinton's K class lost out to Maunsell's U & N classes, due to higher maintenance costs as measured by the new administration, under the new company's CME...... Maunsell. It's noteworthy that many of the Maunsell machines needed new frames later in their life. The Brighton Ks were withdrawn, en-bloc, in fine fettle in late 1962 in order (so the story goes) to meet steam withdrawl targets. So much for economy!
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's loads of info to get you started on the fantastic http://steamindex.com/ website It covers most railways operating in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales, including several light and narrow gauge locos. It's got a search facility simple enough for a dyed-in-the-wool luddite like me to use!

    The great thing with the site is the compendious bibliography referenced throughout the pages. It's cost me a bloody fortune in reference books and back issue magazines over the past decade. Still, I don't get out much these days... and everybody needs a hobby!
     

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