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GWR 2818 transferred to STEAM

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Diamond Gaz, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    https://www.national-preservation.c...ay-museum-to-close.964415/page-4#post-1897136

    Something like the ERM needs MUCH more real support from 'enthusiasts' than all the froth about another steam loco being relocated to a nice, undercover museum. And the T3 will go from 'stuffed and mounted' to a runner, I have no doubt.

    The same comfortable future may not face some of the exhibits at the ERM at the moment, like the C&SLR cars.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2017
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  2. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    The situation with the Electric Railway Museum is sad and desperate. It is an example of what can happen to artefacts that are preserved in the private sector. It doesn't matter how much enthusiasm there is, if the funding is inadequate the exhibits will be at risk. That's the main reason why I have, until now, been opposed to the transfer of priceless and unique artefacts from the NRM into the private preservation sector. Nobody can say that 50 years from now the Foxfield Railway, Swanage Railway and Swindon Museum will be thriving tourist attractions, with all priceless artefacts assured a secure future.

    However, I'm coming to terms with the reality that the NRM is unable to guarantee the future of every item in its care, no matter how priceless we may believe it to be. There isn't a bottomless pit of government money, not just to maintain everything in perpetuity, but also to expand display space so that it can actually be seen by the public. I also understand that the museum wants to present exhibits from the post-steam era, and space has to be cleared for this to happen. In the short term this will be a blessing to the preservation movement as attractive locos and rolling stock are handed over free of charge. In the short term everyone is a winner, because these locos, and probably others to follow, are "going home", and will be displayed or used in a more interesting and appropriate context than the NRM. In the longer term, beyond our lifetimes, who knows what will happen. And will anyone care?
     
  3. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Sometimes i think, is our national railway museum in the wrong place? had it been in our Capital city would the science museum group be acting as they are? As i see it, everything is london centric and as good as it is York will never get the people who make the decisions backing, how much more tourist income could there have been ? At the time when York was chosen, what other possible sites were not? how abouts nine elms, now the site of the new market, , or old oak common?
    But we are where we are, the problem is that the collection in some areas was not properly managed, you cant save everything, and there are somethings that did slip through the net, and other items saved that now we have many more of preserved privately my feeling is that once the NRM came under the control of the Science museum group, the writing was on the wall, with no admission charge, you rely on cateering and hireing out your business to get funding, whilst at the same time your central grant is cut , whilst york was stand alone, in charge of its own budget, it decided how and where money was spent, now i fear , its an edit from up on high.
     
  4. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    And therein lies the rub. One man's 'priceless and unique artefact' is another's 'hundred tons of scrap'. There are unique items at the ERM too, what future do some of them have?

    One member of NP has the very valid .sig of "You can't keep everything. Where would you put it?"

    This is even more valid when the taxpayer is footing the bill and I would venture to suggest it is a vanity in the extreme to expect future generations to share our enthusiasm for a particular interest.
     
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  5. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    Fairly bleak, I imagine. In the past maybe the NRM would have stepped in to claim some of the more interesting vehicles, but those days are over.

    For a venture like the ERM to succeed in the private sector then the members need to have very deep pockets. Without a running line it's never going to be a big attraction.

    I'm going to attend one of the ERM open days this year, but to be honest, although I rather liked the old pre-nationalisation Southern Electrics, I always found the BR built EMUs to be quite uninspiring. Not sure how many other people feel the same, but it's hard to imagine many enthusiasts of my generation flocking to the ERM to see a static display of EMUs. That is not to decry the efforts of the enthusiasts that want to preserve them .... just the reality (IMO) that it's a difficult product to sell.
     
  6. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    Quite true.
     
  7. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    John, I am afraid that I find that a very blinkered approach to the financing of railway heritage across the board. I can only recommend that you look at Andy Norman's very down-to-earth post (6128) this evening in the West Somerset Railway Operations thread for an appraisal of where we've come from and where we are now in terms of the sustainability of the heritage movement. Without your "men in suits" we are in grave danger of loosing most of what has been achieved in the last century. We need to be far more realistic about the future because the costs of railway preservation are rising all the time.

    Peter
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Agreed, provided that they do so in a way that supports and sustains the original vision, and doesn't throw the baby away with the bathwater in the process of protecting that vision.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Which is which is what I was saying
     
  10. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    And if the choice is between changing the original vision or going into liquidation and turning the whole damn lot into razor blades, cycle paths and industrial estates?
     
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  11. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Quite. One of the volunteers I spoke to at the ERM was very pragmatic: yes, it's a pity but there's no denying that Jaguar Land Rover's investment in Coventry has brought a lot of good to the local economy.
     
  12. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    You are NOT the target audience. You do not form a majority of the visiting public. If you visited the NRM once a year, and no one else did, because it was tailored to you, it would close. It is as simple as that.

    It is not as if the NRM does not also cater to enthusiasts with search engine, a variety of special events including displays based around certain items of rolling stock, or similar. We're not talking about a museum that has closed its doors on people who just want to observe the locomotives around the turntable.

    You talk about the museums being free and do not answer the question: who pays for them? If it's the taxpayer, the money has to come from somewhere. The conservative and coalition governments have cut public spending. Museums therefore have to make up the shortfall in other ways.

    It really isn't rocket science, it doesn't particularly affect you, or me, and it keeps the museums alive and people in jobs, and the locomotives/rolling stock/archives under cover for years to come.

    Can we please look at the bigger bloody picture for a change!
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Thank you for highlighting this - I was not aware of this news.
     
  14. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    You should read and comprehend what I write in context before you decide to rant. BTW your first sentence is utterly absurd.
     
  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    The NRM is a national museum with an educational obligation, it is not and should not become some sort of railway based theme park
     
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  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    How is it absurd? The railway museum has a target audience. The visiting public by definition are their largest target audience which bring in the most money. They have to get in X revenue a year to meet Y costs. They therefore have to find ways of bringing said audience through the doors.

    You do not match that demographic of people they absolutely have to get through the doors; and after that encourage them to make donations, buy merchandise, get revenue through their cafes and stalls. You are therefore not the target audience. Fact.

    No one is suggesting that it is trying to become that in any way, shape or form, and that truly is absurd.

    Many of the NRM volunteers and employees that we know in our greater sphere are also railway enthusiasts and they take their roles very seriously: at the same time there is a balance to be meet and they have to be extremely objective going forward for the future of the railway museum.

    It is wearying to see so many people object to the future of our movement - that's the general public who haven't been introduced to steam railways yet - deriving any sort of pleasure in visiting our museums and railways. Why is it so? So many people I speak to say they were enthused by the NRM growing up and it helped shape their interest for years to come. This is still true of many of the younger generations interested in railways.
     
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  17. The Black Hat

    The Black Hat Member

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    The problem is the picture is far bigger than many of us think.

    There are a number of threads within the conversations here that enthusiasts like to throw at the National Railway Museum, but actually are quite baseless and come from the usual nostalgic backward looking insular attitude that some enthusiasts can convey when they feel that the raison d'etre for the NRM is that it there to showcase railways for enthusiasts first and the public second.

    First, the collection itself, by definition will continue to expand. As the greatest collection of railway stock in the world, other nations that feel their developments in railway history have also donated items that are historically significant to this collection so it all can be showcased. That's why theres a Japanese Bullet train alongside Mallard. In many ways, its a massive bonus for that to be possible. However, as the collection grows (as other engines are added) there are obviously times when the collection and its status are reviewed. This has happened before, when engines were permitted to be returned to steam, or where engines are displayed. People need to remember that when many engines were first allocated to the collection, railway preservation was still in its infancy, and Barry wrecks were still unsure whether they would return. As history has panned out, some engines are now also seen in other areas. Yes freight engines are important and their status interesting, but if you get other engines of the same type in preservation, there is also a chance of seeing these elsewhere rather than the NRM collection.

    Being the sole surviror of a class is also no reason to keep an engine. The engineering principles are the same for similar engines and thus they too can showcase the thinking behind such a decision. The idea that LNER engines predominate might also be attributed to the lineage of the museum, also lacks credibility. It was the NER that started preserving its engines right from the beginning and indeed on grouping a lot of other Eastern designs stem from other companies that then formed the LNER. Only the Q7 really bucks the trend, with Q6, J21, J27, G5, J72 all not being chosen, which is odd when you consider other areas designs that were as they were similar and able to be taken into preservation easily at the time, but then is seen as obvious to get parity in terms of representation. There are only three classes of engine from LNER operation that have more than one surviving engine of the class and thus they are rarer and need more to conserve the fleet for preservation. There are more Western and Southern engines exisiting today and so it dilutes the case for retaining every example of this area, when other engines of the time show similar results and other engines of the region are readily available to be seen.

    What makes engines stay in the collection are events in history. Truro making the ton, Scotsman being the first to officially do it, Mallards 126 record status, Hamiltons design. Deltic being a diesel pioneer for express work, 6000 being an engine that returned steam to the mainline. Passenger operations matter more to the viewing public as they can travel by train. Theres a link to them doing it and the bond is stronger. Cue a class 91 to join the collection. Freight will have its place as events continue, but that still means more engines eventually joining.

    Other issues come in the form of where they are displayed. Similar engines to the T3, are all in the station hall at York, where they are at the front of trains and make good displays for the general public. With the 2877, other similar freight machines in the collection like the Q7 are tucked up in Darlington museum and wont be going anywhere soon. The 28xx also has a working preserved engine. Its expensive to move those that are safely secured and costly to do so just for rotating exhibits, especially when some have boardings to stop people falling down the gap in the platform at York. Its been a case of what is needed, where is it, where can things be gifted to that would welcome the donations and be able to make use of them. Other suggestions would have been discounted, due to where they are, what they are doing - behind the ones that are the headline acts.

    The viewing public are also happy to see engines that are broadly similar and come from across the country. Theres representation from all areas at York and that includes diesels too, where the enthusiast fraternity here also roast the NRM for not displaying their interests either. Its a fine line and the public are happy to visit a world renown exhibition that showcases the best of British engineering and development that also spurred the world to develop Rail as a successful national transport. While we might know more or each pander to our own preferences on what we each think is important to be retained or donated, the NRM manage to do their best to satisfy us all. I think they should be applauded for being as successful as they have, as there are many more background influences on their decisions away from the engines themselves to consider - and sadly for all the critics of the NRM from enthusiasts, that is all they sometimes think about, which is why they fail to understand just how big a picture it actually is.
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Well said David. Very thoughtful piece.
     
  19. Enterprise

    Enterprise Part of the furniture

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    A commonly used international definition of a museum is, "A non-profit, permanent institution in the service of society and its development, open to the public, which acquires, conserves, researches, communicates and exhibits the tangible and intangible heritage of humanity and its environment for the purposes of education, study and enjoyment.". Although I understand the pressures on museums exerted by our philistine Government, I fear that the present trajectory of development of the Science Museum Group is moving away from that definition. @S.A.C. Martin and his thoughtful friend @The Black Hat might consider it sufficient that the public have some trains to look at but being a museum should mean far more than being "a showcase".

    http://icom.museum/the-vision/museum-definition/
     
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  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Explain to me then how the National Railway Museum is failing, by that definition you've given me.
     

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