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LSWR T3 563

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by nick813, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    The Bluebell's long term plan under Carriage and Wagon department lists carriage sets, and includes "LSWR mixed types of vehicles as are available".
     
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  2. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, I dont find your argument very compelling with regard to 563, but in any case it is a side issue to the main event here, which is the transference of ownership. I dont much care if the T3 is restored to running order or not. I dont see we learn much from doing so, but at the end of the day it will be a matter for the new owners to decide. I am merely suggesting that there is no great driving need to run it, and that there are some reasons why it should not be. Ultimately I would enjoy seeing it run as much as anyone, but I am not convinced it is in the best interests of the loco really. None of my feelings about any of this are directed at the SR. I am awaiting with interest some further clarification from the NRM / SR that will confirm (or not) that the NRM has acted responsibly. That's all.
     
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  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Well, firstly it is not my decision - but restoring the LSWR carriages is a stated part of the Long Term Plan, agreed by the membership, so it would take the membership to agree to any change. In the meantime, the restored one is kept under cover and the unrestored ones should be by the end of this year. The intention is that they will be restored; building undercover storage makes that goal more attainable.

    There are plenty of LSWR coaches unrestored elsewhere though, including four at Swanage AFAIK, so I am not sure what would be gained by transferring others there.

    Tom
     
  6. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    It is fair enough if you don't understand my reasoning to see 563 and others running, for I equally cannot understand your reasoning for it not running, the arguements people have in general against this happening just come off as rather dull if not cold if I'm being honest.

    Fact is most engines running now have become almost the normal to many, which make galas for example tricky to get people excited for. The T3 however is such a machine that pratically NO ONE has seen in steam and running before, so once restored it will undoubtedly gain much excitement and interest from enthusiasts and standard tourists alike. This movement in general should always be open to inciting new feelings of excitement and intrigue from the new and old alike, and restoring 563 is just one of these methods, though a most effective one.

    I'm happy to hear that you'll at least enjoy it if and when it's running though. I was beginning to get the impression some here would be forever moaning about it's restoration even after completion, and essentially always be wary of it's very presence as though it's been tainted or something alike...
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2017
  7. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Ah I see, well I can understand and respect that, plus in truth it would be nice to see such a set of LSWR carriages restored one day for your fellow resident 488 to pull. And I hope you've not taken my coments as being 'Anti' Bluebell as such Tom, for I have huge respect and fondness for the railway, and hope to visit it someday in person. The Bluebell Railway is one that all other railways should look to as a prime example and role model to follow.

    Indeed there are a good number from what I'm aware, so one hopes they'll be rescued and restored. I know the SR is not that far from having themselves a vintage train (i.e. a couple maunsells and three bulleids carriages), which while compared to the Bluebell's and other is not that substantial, is still a good start with hopefully more undercover accomdation in the work to follow soon enough.

    And finally as a side note, I trust that if 563 does get restored, the Bluebell would be the first on list of request for visits? It would look lovely in front of your vintage rakes, perhaps with the LSWR behind it. ;)
     
  8. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    How many times have you made these same points on the thread now?

    As for the livery debate, whatever is chosen will soon change to rust apparently.
     
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  9. Tim Light

    Tim Light Well-Known Member

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    When making the decision to conserve a vehicle indefinitely there has to be a purpose, other than simply conserving something for its own sake. One reason to conserve a vehicle is to be able to illustrate the engineering techniques and skills of a bygone age. With really ancient locos like Rocket and Bradyll we achieve that. Furthermore, to put either of these locos into working order would require almost every piece of fabric to be replaced, so we would end up with a replica (which is what happened with the Rocket).

    What would be the purpose of conserving No 563? Its last visit to the works was for a cosmetic restoration, and by all accounts its most recent previous visits would have been make-do-and-mend jobs, patched-up repairs to keep the loco serviceable. It's hardly an example of Eastleigh's finest work. And even if it was, how would anyone be able to appreciate it? In order to appreciate the engineering of a steam locomotive you first need to dismantle it and then carry out an engineering survey. So far as the general public is concerned this is pretty meaningless. It's hardly a selling point to say that this loco was last overhauled by "real" Southern Railway engineers, when all you can actually see is a relatively recent NRM paint job.

    One good reason for conserving a loco is that it carries a well-preserved livery that was applied by craftsmen in a main-line company workshop. This might apply to Lode Star, but I don't think it applies to 563.
     
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  10. William Fletcher

    William Fletcher Member

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    When I saw it at the Railway Children, the paint looked decidedly tired
     
  11. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    I am grateful to John Petley quoting me a few days previously - or was it just yesterday? So many posts to catch up with!

    The last mechanical attention this loco received was at Eastleigh in May 1948 after sitting in the scrap line dump for 3 years. It was by all accounts a 'rushed' job and the paint wasnt dry when it appeared at the Waterloo Centenary celebrations !

    I dont have Don Bradley's volumes of the LSWR locos to hand at the moment and rather surprised no one has quoted from them re 563 so far.

    No one has yet commented upon when the last boiler change was for the loco and of what age, and whether Drummond type or Adams original.

    The Adams Radial tank on the Bluebell requires the sort of extensive renewal as done for the IOWSR's LSWR W24 02 'Calbourne' a few years ago. In effect this was a new Adams boiler incorporating just a few original parts, and at great cost and supported by grant funding. Arguably the cost would have been less had a completely new boiler been built, but this would not have attracted the grant funding!

    We know that the Adams Radial tank on the Bluebell requires similar drastic rebuilding at great cost, and so has been on static display for a generation.

    Of the 3 surviving Adams locos, 488, and W24, it is reasonable to assume 563 will also require very expensive drastic boiler repairs, if not a new boiler, and it is a larger boiler than fitted to 488 or W24. The IOWSR have extensive experience of repairing W24's boiler, which when withdrawn in 1967 was assessed to be the best boiler of all the old Adams class 02s surviving including all the withdrawn examples in the scrap line at Newport, as the last boiler overhauled, yet has required considerable work in preservation over the years until the drastic rebuild a few years ago with grant funding.

    These are old venerable locos.

    There has been no further contributions in the last 5 pages of posts of anything that contributes towards our understanding of the condition of 563, or how it will be better looked after than under cover at Shildon or York.

    I am not too much interested who owns the loco or whether it will steam again. The 'steam again' is in Paul Hitchcock's 'wouldnt it be nice' category. I think it would be a very expensive job with the boiler to get it back to steam, and no doubt the Swanage has a lot more other claims on it's resources at the current time.

    What I am very concerned about is that the loco will not deteriorate under it's new ownership in the abscence of undercover storage. Again, nothing in the last 5 pages of posts has given me any comfort in this regard.

    To bring things back to John Petley, W24 Calbourne has a very old Adams boiler that has required very expensive work over the last 45 years or so to keep it operational, often with many years waiting for funding out of use till such repairs could be undertaken. The Adams Radial tank has not steamed since 1990 because the Bluebell have not the funds to do the boiler repairs required. John quoted 'Sidmouth' which has a relatively new boiler by comparison to these ancient relicts of the steam age.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  12. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    I would personally stop being so concerned about it until you've a reason to be (it can be bad for one's health you know), for while we do not know what they have planned for the engine's future as yet, there's equally nothing to suggest that they don't.

    People repeatedly stating how much 'concern' they have over this won't make the situation any better or worse, only make themselves overly bothered and concerned for an issue that might not even be there in the first place... 5 pages may not have given certain people comfort as yet, but that's probably down to those said folks just jumping to conclusions and getting all hot and botherd by it. (Not to mention ruin the mood for everyone else if we're being blunt...)
     
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  13. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Hi JMJR1000,

    You obviously dont have the love and affection that I have for the pre-1924 locos that were absorbed into the Southern Railway!

    Hypothetically someone says to the NRM give us 'Boxhill' or 'Gladstone' and we will display them publically but not under cover but out in the open.

    (Rather like 'Newington' No. 46 outside a Brickfields pub on Hayling Island was, or 'Brighton' No.40 was at Butlins with stones down the chimney and blastpipe and into the cylinder block that caused enormous expense due to damage to the cylinder block when the loco was restored by the IOWSR).

    How do you think us Brighton fans would respond?

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I rather think Julian you've lost your objectivity here.

    We find ourselves in strange times. There are those criticising the K4 going into secure accommodation (hands in the air; I was one such person) and now we have a railway taking on a locomotive where they clearly do want to own it and do so well.

    In an age where we expect answers quickly I rather think this thread has given us the worst of that ilk.

    A few days bickering on here has made no difference ultimately to the engine, railway or museum.

    Calmly await events.

    And remember that, even if the love of a specific railway isn't shared by all here, we are all here ultimately because we love railways. Can we hold onto that and agree to disagree until we know more - please?
     
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  15. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Simon,

    I dont think I have lost my objectivity at all. I have quoted one example namely Stroudley Terrier 'Brighton' No.40 which suffered considerable damage at Butlins due to being left out in the open that required considerable expense to put right due to a few stones dropped down the chimney.

    Cheers,
    Julian
     
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    You make this far too easy Julian. If not a loss of objectivity, you're definitely erring on the hysterical. Give it a break.
     
  17. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think your comment is unnecessary.
     
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  18. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    563 does have the advantage of not having any BR or early preservation bodges!

    (Only Southern Railway ones.....)
     
  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Perhaps Miff: but we have had two days of this and for some reason we're getting comparisons with Butlins, which to me is a rather unfair one to make with the Swanage Railway.

    And we are verging on the hysterical here. The locomotive hasn't even moved as yet. It's just been announced. No doubt questions will be answered in due course. Is it really fair to pre-empt anything at this stage?
     
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  20. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I don't understand your comment here. The Southern Railway had nothing to do with its preservation. It was BR (Southern Region) who preserved it in the early months of 1948. It was also they who carried out the restoration of the loco, including fitting it with an Adams stove pipe chimney. It was in Eastleigh Works for attention again in 1960, although Bradley does not specify what this entailed, prior to dispatch to Clapham Museum. Once there the Eastleigh painters completed the repainting of the loco and it has not been touched since then.

    Peter
     
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