If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

LMS 2P 4-4-0

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by joshs, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,761
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Maunsell designed Great Southern & Western 4-4-0 no 341 "Sir William Goulding". Apparently a very fine loco, it had a short life because it was non-standard (and also, the rumour always said, because it outperformed a successor's lousy 4-6-0s).
     
  2. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Its also worth pointing out that while the standard of driving pre 1968 could be very variable, drivers were driving the same classes of locos over the same route day in day out so the good ones were able to get away with situations that were on the margin of what was possible.

    As a 'for example' in Poland I watched an OL49 in a controlled wheelslip take 750 tons uphill - the Freight crew were amazed when we got back as they were waiting to be called on to rescue us
     
    Shed9C likes this.
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Bored out cylinders and turned down driving wheels can easily add 10% to a locos nominal T.E., as you suggest. However, even that isn't going to take the claim out of the realms of fantasy. I did comment that the claimed weight made the coaches rather heavy, even if you allowed for them being full of passengers. I suspect the load was significantly less than quoted in terms of tonnage, if not number of vehicles.
    1 in 100 is significantly easier than 1 in 60 and your 318 tons plus Ivatt Cl.2 only requires about 13,000 lbf T.E., at the wheel, leaving a lot available to overcome internal friction and provide an accelerating force.
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,315
    Likes Received:
    16,391
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Isn't there a big difference between the modern front end of an Ivatt 2 and the constipated steam circuit of a 2P?
     
    andrewshimmin likes this.
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's of much less significance when the speed is low, though, such as when slogging uphill with a heavy load. A very free front end really comes into its own when the speed is sufficiently high and the ports are therefore only open for a very short time, meaning that the steam has to flow at a very high mass-flow rate if the cylinder is to receive a full charge before the port closes. At low speed, the ports are open for a length of time sufficient to allow the steam to reach equilibrium between boiler and cylinder, even if the steam passages are very convoluted.

    (Thought experiment: imagine opening the regulator on a stationary locomotive. You could have the inlet steam supply fed through a suitably strengthened straw, and in time pressure in the cylinder would still build up to the full pressure. Just don't try the same thing at 60mph!)

    Tom
     
  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2006
    Messages:
    2,987
    Likes Received:
    5,084
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Lecturer retired: Archivist of Stanier Mogul Fund
    Location:
    Wigan
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    This is absolutely true, and shows why it is important to open the taps (cylinder drain cocks) of a standing engine. Even a small steam blow through the regulator will eventually give sufficient steam pressure in the cylinders for the loco to move off on its own. I recall 6443 on the SVR doing this, with six coaches attached. As I'd just gone between to unhook, I had to get out again rather smartly.
     
  7. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2010
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    3,981
    Location:
    i.o.m
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Agreed, but in addition, if the loco was in mid-gear with the handbrake on that wouldn't have happened.
    Ray.
     
  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,160
    As celebrated in Dave Goulder's song The Man Who Put the Engine in the Chip Shop.
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Wasn't there an accident from the bad-old days of the S&DJR - Wellow comes to mind for some reason - in which a fireman lit up an engine early one morning and then retired for breakfast; and returned to find said locomotive had raised steam and set off for an unattended early-morning jaunt along the line, collecting level crossing gates and sundry paraphanelia as it went? As I recall it had been left in gear without the handbrake on, and the regulator either cracked open or leaking by, so once there was a bit of steam, off it went, at which point the draft livened the fire up and it put on more steam...

    Tom
     
  10. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2014
    Messages:
    14,315
    Likes Received:
    16,391
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired, best job I've ever had
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Correct, I think Peter Smith relates that story in one of his books
     
  11. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2011
    Messages:
    1,761
    Likes Received:
    2,160
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Interested to know of the welcome for 2Ps in the GSWR area was due to the motive power crisis immediately preceding?
    As I understand it, the Manson-era GSWR locos ranged from competent to excellent (for their era) and while the Drummond saturated locos were sluggish the superheated ones were good. But Whitelegg's rebuilds after the war, although handsome, were useless - motion design I believe - and even the Manson locos just shopped under his tenure were 'ruined' by problems with valve settings and replacement valves. Is that fair? If so, a competent but unremarkable 2P would probably have been welcome on a hilly and not especially fast railway.
     
  12. D6332found

    D6332found Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  13. sir gilbert claughton

    sir gilbert claughton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    511
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    east sussex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    same thing allegedly happened on the LBSCR .(and no doubt others also) Mazzeppa set off on its own and collected a rich harvest of crossing gates . the story is probably apochryphal

    the west coast boys thought the 2Pwas a rather weedy machine . probably understandable if you were used to Georges.

    they were well liked on the MGNR.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  14. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Given though that there are a number of admittedly superior 4-4-0's of similar vintage in preservation though - T9, T3 City of Truro & the Compound spring to mind why build a 2P?

    Why not get what we have running first?
     
    andrewshimmin and 240P15 like this.
  15. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Valid point but a new build has something to recommend it. The initial cost has to be tied to the projected maintenance costs over, shall we say, forty years.
    Why? Overhaul costs tend to increase with the age of the machine they also tend to become more protracted. Our preserved examples are all well, well over 40 years old and some 40 years is viewed as a respectable, economic term, design working life.
    A new build could be kept in traffic more easily than an elderly preserved example because the whole fabric is newer. We are concerned about preservation here, but keeping the trains running while easing the pressure on those responsible for returning to work and maintaining the heritage examples and allowing them more time to both raise funds and conclude their work in the most satisfactory manner is something to consider.
    "Procession to the Plinth" is an expression we are all familiar with. Will people always be willing to raise the funds required to keep locomotives in running order? Will they be able to? And swiftly enough to allow the traction needs of the lines that they are associated with to be met? Speed and ease can become watchwords in the circumstances.
    I am not very enthusiastic about plinthing. We can comfortably carry out repairs now that were unthinkable back in the 1960s. And to say that we have moved on to new builds is something of an understatement.
    The movement has received a wake up call recently. Components that we believed or rather understood or maybe thought to have a neigh on infinite life can and do fail. More thoroughness is recommended, which takes more time and involves more cost.
    So, choices, choices. To keep our heritage working or to ease the task of keeping them working and how best to do this.
    Well a new 2P on a heritage line would have no significant speed commitment and the class were found to work rather well with modest loads over a challenging route. Is the creation of an example such a bad idea? Railway preservation could be entering an interesting phase. New builds might well increase in number to the point where they work the bulk of the trains with more valuable and costly heritage machines making more limited appearances, not plinthed but given necessarily easier lives.
     
    jnc likes this.
  16. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    You forgot the fantastic "School class" my friend;)

    Knut
     
  17. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    deleted
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2018
  18. D6332found

    D6332found Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think the days of the nrm running delicate Victorian locos like the Compound are the days of future past. Look at the Crab, and Scotsman. Old things go wrong, frequently. Tornado doesnt. The 2P was a very popular model, its imprinted on many's childhoods, a decent workhorse that did its job widely, sharing many components with others, and it can be blue,red or black!
     
    Gav106 and andalfi1 like this.
  19. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It’s very pleasing to see just how rapidly they have been able to obtain the status as a “Trust” - I’m sure it is merely an oversight that they haven’t lodged the relevant paperwork on the Charity Commission website, and appear to have forgotten to list their charity registration number on their website.

    Edit: @ghost is clearly of the same mind. Still, give ‘em time, eh? Probably still sorting out the paperwork for the V2 Locomotive Trust... https://m.facebook.com/V2-Locomotive-Trust-533205217046508/

    Tom
     

Share This Page