S&C reopening special with Flying Scotsman 31/03/17

Corrected, thank you!

 

Its run by the NYMR themselves John

 

Better still pay £18 for a ride out behind her..

 

I'd rather pay £100 for a full day charter like that (46100 morning and afternoon with D7628 taking over for the lunch break), than pay £60 for a 5 hours at Barrow Hill with a few dead locos and a smoke machine.

Anyway, the lineside permit fee for KWVR works out as less than £4 a day, now that it's working the second weekend as well as midweek. Plenty of other shots on the line anyway that don't need a permit. IMHO the only decent lineside location is Oakworth mound - I bet that'll be a bit busy!

 

There are exceptions to every rule Nigel, good luck

 

So lineside permit for all FS running days and membership of a superb preserved railway for the same money as I have paid for a days charter with 70013 a tax the GC on Wednesday. Still seems good value to me.

 

Can't agree the vast majority of the public who go to see it would not want a photo permit and probably wouldn't want to pay more than the normal fare to travel behind it on the S&C

 

Seems like reasonable market pricing to me. As the appeal of seeing FS reduces, if it does, watch the prices fall.

Until then why not get those who are prepared to pay more, pay more?

 

I've always regarded the K&WVR as a great little railway, and I look forward to seeing 41241 coming back in the 1968 red livery as this showed as an independent local railway. The FS week is a natural enterprise for the line, and it is legitimate to charge what the market will bear - the money will go into securing the future development of the railway. Photographers have a free choice whether to spend an extra £25 (on top of the annual lineside permit fee) for linesiding during that week. This should reduce numbers so that the really dedicated photters can get some nice 'exclusive' shots. It is not as if purchasers of the annual pass were led to believe at the time of purchase that this would include the FS week because the FS week has only recently been arranged. Freedom of choice!

That said, I don't like the tone of the message, with its reference to 'policing' the event - I thought that railways were meant to be fun!

 

Railways are meant to be fun but some people havent got a sense of humour unfortunately

 

Has football arrived in Cheshire at last, lol

 

As well as enjoying railways, I used to be a football lover. One of my pleasures was to take my son ground-hopping at all levels. This has come to an end because (i) my son has grown up, and (ii) professional football has priced me out. As a youngster I could afford to watch games at every level, but since the Premier League came along the cost of admission has spiralled out of my means. Even my local 3rd division team (Bradford City) charge £25 on the gate. So I'm reduced to watching non-league football, which I still find enjoyable and less hassle. I don't blame the big teams for cashing in on their popularity, but nevertheless I feel a tiny bit bitter that the working man's sport has been yuppified in this way.

Off-topic? Bear with me.

Back in the 1990s Tony Marchington became the owner of Flying Scotsman. He invested a lot of money (about £2.5 million I think) to get it ship-shape, and then attempted to milk it for all it was worth. So far as he was concerned, it was a very marketable brand, and he wasn't interested in the enthusiast market. He was chasing the corporate customers who would pay premium prices for premium services. In a sense he was ahead of his time. His venture was a failure, presumably because the prices he wanted to charge were more than the market would stand at that time. He took a lot of flack from enthusiasts for trying to exploit the loco's brand whilst not respecting its heritage (apple green with smoke deflectors, for example). But he argued, with some justification, that the enthusiast market was not lucrative enough repay 4472's overhaul costs.

My concern now is that there could be a trend towards the yuppification of our hobby. At the moment it is Flying Scotsman and Royal Scot that are getting the headlines for premium fare events. And as long as it's only one-off events such as these, or the Snowdonian, then there will be nothing for the ordinary enthusiast to worry about. But there is a danger that the premium product market will become so lucrative that some railways will no longer bother with ordinary services. This has happened in a small way with the Weardale and Dartmoor lines. I'm not expecting the KWVR to suddenly stop running their normal timetabled services or enthusiast galas, but if the trend towards premium services accelerates then I might find myself increasingly priced out of the preserved railway market the way I've been priced out of professional football.

This is only one scenario, and the best case scenario is that the SVR, KWVR and NYMR make lots of unbudgeted money out of these events that helps them to make their railways better for ordinary families and enthusiasts.

 

The Carlisle train is £220. Rather more than Bradford City. I could even watch a category B game at Chelsea for less than that.

But you're right. I could afford the KWVR round trip.

 

There's a counter argument that maybe we are finally having to face up to the real, sustainable cost of keeping expensive obsolete infrastructure and rolling stock running. For the last forty or fifty years, by contrast, we have been slowly using up what was considerable residual life - and therefore value - in assets that were acquired at scrap prices. Two or three periods in traffic later you can no longer continue to rely on, say, what was a sound firebox when you acquired a loco, but instead end up facing the prospect of a boiler overhaul that isn't much short of a new boiler. Multiply across your fleet, and track, and structures ...

Tom

 

While I have and still do defend the proposed charges for lineside permits that KWVR have advised, I do share Tim's concerns about the way the preserved railway movement may go. I was a a trustee for 25 years, and certainly part of what I saw as the remit of an educational charity was to make their services as financially accessible as possible. Others said I was wrong - what about 'public' schools, which are charities but charge high fees (albeit with some scholarships I believe - not a world I have ever been involved with!), but, by asking the right question perhaps, a Charity Commissioners representative did agree with my take on this (I am sure that @Robin White will confirm the importance of asking the right question!)

My concerns were prompted by a comment just before I entered the bear-pit of trusteeship that 'we need fewer passengers and a better class of passenger'. I couldn't disagree more and that is one of the reasons I became a trustee in the first place. I am as painfully aware as anyone that preserved railways cost a fortune to run, and sadly Tim - a lot of money goes keeping things 'as they are' with no visible improvements - £800k of bridge still enables the same train service, but don't spend it and there is no train service!

I suspect the 'yuppieficiation' of preserved lines is partly an effect of the 'early retirement generation' becoming the main work-force - and they tend to come from better paid, or certainly better pensioned backgrounds. What isn't expensive to them is to others. Most understand this very well but a few not only consider that 'their railway' shouldn't be appealing to those who won't 'pay through the nose' but also seem to consider that only those of a similar background are suitable to hold positions that influence the way 'their' railway is going - in other words, people they expect to share their view on pricing etc.

Need for extra funds doesn't assure the market's willingness to pay higher prices, especially for the 'same' product - and don't assure greater Income overall. That is a general warning but also perhaps an explanation for the premium pricing of Flying Scotsman as thge exception that proves the rule - the market seems to feel that this loco does justify premium pricing but believing that a bit of marketing spin will do the same for other locos may be very dangerous indeed!

Hey, but what do I know - I didn't think the sort of premium prices that Flying Scotsman has been getting would work!

Steven

 

There is a parallel with this situation and the discussion on another thread regarding the operation of Thomas the Tank event. Both are well established in the public mind, both are expensive to operate (including the publicity) and both attract large numbers of visitors.

BUT

Both events are expensive (60103 - hire charges; Thomas - HIT licence fees + commission rates) but each line that operates will have an idea of what its market will pay for a product hence can judge whether the total expense is more than income thus resulting in profit. At the moment Thomas is passé and there is little profit to be gained whereas 60103 is the latest "fashion" and both attracts a large market and a premium price given the period of time during which it was not available. One cannot blame the heritage lines for "striking whilst the iron is hot", although KWVR prices don't seem too high given the fact that the fare acts as a Day Rover to allow travel on the other trains during the day and sample the line. Even the "high" cost of £220:00 seems quite reasonable given that it marks the re-opening of the S&C after major engineering works and the fare includes a souvenir booklet (agreed - quality uncertain); with around 500 seats available who wouldn't want to be on the "first train" ? Think back to 1968 when the "15 Guinea Special" cost about a week's wages; on that basis the 31 March trip doesn't seem too expensive IMHO.

For both locomotives it is a case of "horses for Courses" and - at the moment - 60103 is the horse that customers are desperate to ride behind. Whilst I understand the concern of those who feel that prices have gone too high there are sufficient of those who feel prices are acceptable hence why shouldn't the operators target the latter group to help offset the expense of operating 60103.

I am minded to note that many have over-looked the unwelcome situation that 60103 has highlighted - steam locomotive operation is expensive and overhauls are both equally so and necessary hence the need to charge at levels to fund the future overhauls and repairs - else be prepared to see steam locomotives stuffed and mounted in museums or on plinths.

 

Excellent post Fred,common sense prevails

 

I think the 68trip was more than that in real terms, as Fred said it was about a week's wages, average salary was about £1500pa back then. I do remember the same argument about pricing out the real enthusiast at the time but it was advertised as the very last chance to travel behind steam on the mainline. Anyone on it should now claim back the fare on the basis of misrepresentation!