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Steam preserved but what about the Electric Traction

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Blockman, Dec 6, 2016.

  1. Blockman

    Blockman New Member

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    I can hear the screams from all the steam buffs. Yet we also need to preserve so much electric traction of days past.

    There is a Heritage site in Coventry who are doing just that. It's called the Electric Railway Museum and they have a web site. I think their next public opening is Easter 2017. I can put up some photographs if there is an interest?
     

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  2. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    no need to be negative about steam buffs, "we" ...well most of us anyway, ...don't see the need to preserve much in the way of electric traction, just bear in mind that you need to do whatever off your own back regarding electrics, there is very little need for them on steam lines, so it's down to places like Coventry to carry the flag.

    Of course there's an interest, put up your photos, but you will have to work pretty hard to convert that to active preservation.
     
  3. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think the lack of a suitable operational venue away from NR is the biggest barrier to preserving Electric rolling stock, some loco's have made it into pres like those at Barrow Hill, but a lot of units, particularly of the 3rd rail variety are being lost, even from preservation, I can't help but feel their as best status as an oddball rake of hauled stock doesn't help in this respect, the last thing many pres lines with limited space want or need is stock not capable of operating itself.
     
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  4. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    I agree, so basically what might be the answer would be a non-operating museum, telling the story of electric traction. I'm not really sure how popular that would be, so I imagine electric traction buffs will have to fund it out of their own pockets.
     
  5. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    If it's going to be popular then it has to be operating and realistically the mainstay of the operation needs to be something that's far removed from recent commuter memory, and it needs to be something which creaks, whines and rattles as it bounces along, so whilst it may be relatively easy to preserve a Cig or a Vep at the moment, to draw in the punters you're going to need something made of varnished wood or something quirky like the surviving bits of the double decker. And even then I think it needs to be attached to an established railway rather than a short demonstration line on its own somewhere. All of which says "Ardingly branch" to me, and yes I quite understand that the Bluebell and its members aren't all either (a) totally sold on the idea or (b) convinced it will or even can happen. But WIBN, etc.

    Once you get into the era of air conditioning and various weird couplings none of which couple to each other, I think the odd driving car in a museum is about all we can realistically hope for. I imagine the NRM might pick up one or two as examples of the era but beyond that, I think much of this stock will struggle to survive once its operating days are over. Unless there is a sudden need for camping coaches and chicken coops up and down the land, which after all is why so many of the older hauled coaches have made it into preservation.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As is obvious and has been noted above, operation of electric locomotives and EMU's is not presently a possibility on heritage railways so a static museum is all that can be realistically achieved. However, many museums survive on static exhibits and there is no reason why a museum dedicated to such traction should not prosper. Its operational overheads should not be significant and undercover exhibits are not going to deteriorate or need significant looking after, unlike operational rolling stock. The biggest obstacle is probably the capital cost of a suitable building, simply because the main exhibits aren't exactly small.
     
  7. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    there's an advantage of not being attached to a new or existing railway...there must somewhere be a suitable building, perhaps on an industrial estate, that could be adapted, perhaps even an ex Railway shed of some sort.
     
  8. Luke McMahon

    Luke McMahon Member

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    Think the only unit that can operate realistically is the network south east group's 4CIG 1753. Currently at finmere station it runs push pull with a 73/1 number 73130.

    Apart from that a 33/1 can work push pull with certain units which there's a few 33/1s operational at various sites. Could provide heat & a way of running & during summer anything that's air or dual braked can work with them.

    Also another idea to note is the eden valley railway who have a number of emus. Theirs run with a motor luggage van (MLV) which has a diesel engine mounted inside so can provide it's own power without a 3rd rail. Not entirely sure what the plans are for the MLV that moved to the epping ongar railway from the east kent but I believe it has run previously on battery power. & finally the east lancs have got the surviving 504 which will hopefully be used as hauled stock once it's been restored & the 502 group are working to return their unit to working order too.
     
  9. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

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    Crich shows that just because the traction is electric doesn't mean that it wouldn't be popular, but just static outside viewing is of limited interest.
     
  10. Phil-d259

    Phil-d259 Member

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    Indeed

    However Crich have the advantage that they can actually have their trams move under their own power. As has been explained many times the ORR / HSE have made it VERY clear they will not permit 3rd rail or 6.25 /25KV overheads in a heritage situation. Given experience of using EMUs as hauled stock hasn't exactly been a massive success on Heritage lines it has been tried, static (and preferably undercover) display is the most likely way of preserving such vehicles for future generations.
     
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  11. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    the USP about Crich is the tram, the fact that most of them work by electricity is immaterial. People go to see Trams , not Electric powered vehicles.

    I very much doubt that many people would be attracted to a similar attraction running 4CIGs and other emus. Hardly any of the users of these units will have fond memories of them whereas Trams are held in high regard , nostalgia wise.
     
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  12. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    I would reckon that the main reason that Crich and other tramways can run is that the electric is safely up in the air, and not a frightening voltage, and that (as far as I can think) they were all built in the 1950s-early 70s, when HSE was less of an issue. Thankfully, this means heritage tram operation is pretty proven and well developed.
    Perhaps if some far sighted folk had put a third rail down in that era then things would be different. Much as I would love to see an electric line built, much discussion on here has shown that it probably isn't happening.

    You then have the question of money. Trams are much smaller, lighter vehicles, than EMU sets, making them far cheaper to buy, transport and repair. Even then, they're not cheap-for example, our current rebuild of LCC 1 is reckoned to cost around half a million. Imagine that multiplied out over 4, much bigger, vehicles! Then you're fighting against the much lower interest that EMUs have, and the fact that they are much flimsier than a steam engine. Store it outside for 40 years like some ex Barry wrecks, and you'll have nothing much left.

    You also need much less space to store them. Look how big Crich depots are, we have something like 50 trams on site, covering pretty much the full development of trams in the UK, plus some foreigners. A similar area of shed space, configured for railway vehicles (i.e. much longer points, gentler curves and longer roads for 3-4 car sets) might store, say, 5 or 6 units? And of course, you will need everything under cover if you want it to survive.

    There are some things I think Crich got absolutely bang on, that any other niche interest group would do well to learn. Right from the start, any tram that came on site became the museums, and getting them under cover was priority number 1. This means that all efforts can be concentrated on a few vehicles at once, so we tend to actually finish them. We must be the only museum that hasn't got a load of half dismantled buses/coaches/locos/wagons that were last touched 15 years ago. An EMU museum ran on these lines would surely be the best chance of successfully saving a few?
     
  13. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    Here's a mildly far fetched idea though. Suppose a site could be found at the end of a third rail branch line still on the national network. Could heritage trains be ran there, in a similar manner to how the NYMR runs to Whitby without full mainline certification?
     
  14. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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  15. Reading General

    Reading General Part of the furniture

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    The Alton branch perhaps?
     
  16. Phill S

    Phill S New Member

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    The Brighton Belle is a wonderful project, and I'm very pleased it is happening. But as you infer, it is feasable because it will be a high end, luxury train, with a proper historical feel. Also, the amount of modification it has needed has been enormous. Very clever, very necessary to make it's operation possible, but from a museum point of view, not ideal. Much as I admire the 5-Bel group, and definately intend to ride on it, I doubt it is a way forward for anyone else.
     
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Technically, it is a possibility covered by the Bluebell Railway long term plan. However, the specific wording is surrounded by all sorts of conditionals: "Projects aspired to within 25 years: investigate the possible future electrification of the Ardingly Branch". In other words, it's an aspiration, not an anticipated project (unlike some of the others in the plan); and even that aspiration is merely to investigate whether electrification might be possible. That part of the LTP would be delivered if, in a couple of decades from now, someone did a reasonable investigation and discovered that it wasn't possible. Not really a clarion call to action...

    Others have made the point about the likely ORR response to new electrification schemes (given that putative electrification would have to go through, or round, the Hanson site unless they gave up their lease - at the moment, if we do re-open the Ardingly Branch, the most likely initial scenario would be to terminate outside the existing Ardingly station site, with an end-on connection to the mainline through their works, though there could be other schemes I guess). In addition, from memory of what happened at East Grinstead, ground current leaks reached about 2km underground from the end of the third rail, which required using AC (rather than our standard DC) track circuits on the Northern Extension. Putting the third rail into Horsted Keynes would therefore require, apart from anything else, a major bit of S&T work in the vicinity of that station to change all the track circuits, and the way they are interlocked into the signalling. I can't really see where the money or resource or desire would come from to do that.

    By which you can probably deduce that I am a Bluebell member who meets your criteria (a) and (b) above. Which is not that I am anti-electric; just that I think the only viable way to have operational heritage EMUs is to run them on Network Rail whereby someone else looks after the infrastructure and the operating group only has to consider maintenance of the unit (and even that wouldn't be easy, for example meeting crash resistance standards while maintaining commercially viable seating capacity in relatively short units).

    Tom
     
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  18. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    Something which I have seen suggested was using up to date electric vehicle technology such as the power cells or whatever they are called, from something like a Toyota Prius on a bigger scale, to power an EMU
     
  19. mikechant

    mikechant Member

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    Just as an idle thought, how possible/practical would it be to adapt a 3rd rail EMU to run at a low 'safe' voltage (e.g. 50v) assuming a low top speed (may be even less than the generally permitted 25mph) and no significant gradients? If this could work you can have a realistic-looking 3rd rail setup without the HSE issues.
     
  20. Zoomeg

    Zoomeg New Member

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    isn't that how the Volks Railway along the seafront in Brighton gets away with it?

    I think battery power for DC emu's is the way to go if it's possible, probably hideously expensive to convert all the systems from 750v though. Overhead wouldn't really work IMO unless they also put fake catenary up a la OO scale. Best we can hope for is "preserved" 86/7 running on the main line as now
     

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