LSWR T3 563

one or both could be candidates for permanent transfer...

 

That the NRM seems happy to renew the loan agreement on 850 and probally will do the same for 925 does make you wonder, if they are in effect on permanant loan anyway, the MHR seems to have a free hand in their use, where the engines may be loaned to , has there been any case of an NRM engine thats in traffic on one railway having a gala visit to another line vetoed by the NRM?

 

I went on holiday to Swanage in 2015 and visited the railway then and was very impressed with it. I think this is a great piece of news, it is an appropriate home for the loco, on South Western metals, and I would love to see it steaming. I personally don't care about how much has to be replaced, as long as the loco is restored and looked after, after all, how much of 4472 is as built in 1923?

 

I heard a rumour of that situation happening once, but have no idea how much truth there was in it!

 

I also visited in 2015 and was impressed in many areas but also felt it was a railway striving to get to the next level. I am uncomfortable with the NRM's policy of disposals and why, like many other public bodies, it cannot grant a medium to long term loan, but retain control of ownership is difficult to understand. However, the T3 might facilitate further improvements over the medium term on this railway and that should be encouraged.

The area around the station could be much improved. The bus facilities and the fire station are not a good use of land in this area and are detrimental to the overall heritage offer. An active local authority could help reorganise this area, creating space for improved undercover and interpretation facilities for the railway.

The T3 will I am afraid look odd with the railways current carriage fleet, but in the medium term maybe some of the yet to be restored Maunsell carriages and even a small fleet of LSWR coaches exist on the railway and would make a real difference to the standard Mk1 offer, although two bullied coaches shows the commitment in this direction.

The Swanage Railway is one of those railways with very good historic stations, a strong and relevant core collection of locomotives and carriages and over period of time could become one of the very best railways in the country. I better catering offer would be good, we went elsewhere on the day of our visit - sorry.

 

I think there maybe more to this than meets the eye.......

Nellie carries a plaque which states on loan from the NRM, can't say I've looked too close on Chellie for the same.... But it seems the NRM are happy with our custodianship.

I for one would love to see something like the Q1 show up & be put back into running order Fugly as they are, but I think that won't happen. But I wish the Swanage well with the T3.

Anyway, I'm left wondering if this & other strategic disposals have something to do with what is planned for the the redevelopment around the NRM?.....

 

Me too, but that can be achieved without it being discarded from the national collection.

 

I was informed that the T3 might be residing at Corfe Castle a first by the Book Wagon.
It had been expected to arrive several months ago, it arrival kept being delayed.
Great day today of the Swanage Railway!

 

Regarding the harsh judgement of ELR loco management, each of the locos you mention is privately owned and each of the owners made independent decisions for their own reasons to transfer their asset elsewhere, 80097 excepted. ELR had no stake or say in any case but the std4 group has latterly accepted an investment by the railway. It is easy to judge outcomes superficially and reach erroneous conclusions.

 

I had my rant about the NSR tank, and I feel the same way about No 563. But I won't repeat myself. Not at length, anyway.

If I was in charge at the NRM I would want to retain ownership of No 563 on behalf of the nation. It's a priceless and relatively unspoiled Victorian gem, and I would want ensure that it has an appropriate future. That future could entail a long term loan to a mature heritage railway with the resources to display and/or overhaul the loco so that it can be enjoyed by the public in a relevant context.

By gifting the loco to the Swanage Railway the NRM is not ensuring that it has an appropriate future. The NRM is washing its hands of No 563. Once it's handed over, the NRM will have no further interest in its condition or accessibility, and no option to recall the loco if things don't go to plan.

The Swanage line is a fine railway, and getting better all the time. I'm sure that No 563 will be well looked after there, although it would be nice to hear some more concrete plans. I congratulate Swanage on this acquisition, and wish them all the best with it.

I do find it staggering that the NRM cannot see the value that this fabulous locomotive brings to their collection. I appreciate that they can't display everything at York or Shildon, but that doesn't mean that they have to discard things that they have no room for.

A long term partnership with Swanage involving the display, or even operation of the loco, on its native territory, would be absolutely fine. And in the unlikely event that Swanage were unable to care for it, it could be recalled.

 

cancelled

 

Having taken in this big news and all of this thread up till this point, I for one am delighted by this news personally, surely the jewel in the crown for the Swanage Railway now. There's no doubt in my mind the railway will take good care of 563, arguably giving it more attention then NRM ever did (apart from their brief usage of it for the railway children theatre shows). It's wonderful elegant machine, and one I reckon would get much support if and when a restoration appeal is put forward.

That said however, while this news may be great to many, I do recognise a certain level of concern if not plain disgust for this move by many on here. But while I sympathise with these opinions to a certain extent, I can't say I'm honestly that much concerned with this trend of transferring ownership. The fact is the NRM has been struggling for years to keep all it's collection undercover, and apart from Swindon and Locomotion, very few other outstations have come along to help the problem. I am aware that the GCR are in the process of building such a place themselves to help with this issue, but let's be realistic here... it'll probably only hold about 4 or 5 locomotives (if they even are all locos, they could be coaches or the like), which won't help solving the problem by that much. The NRM are tasked with caring for this priceless collection, yes, but simply put this is a task which they cannot seem uphold that well.

So then as I see it, by handing ownership to another relevant heritage organisation, one that can give such historic vehicles like 563 the proper care and attention they deserve, I see no issue with it. And while I'm on this matter, one issue brought up that really bothers me, why on earth do people seem to assume it's future is somehow worse off or in danger by no longer being in the national collection? It is true that heritage railways have failed in the past to look after items of historic value before in the past, but the movement as a whole has changed and matured much since then. I think it's absurd to believe that any well-regarded heritage railway would allow such a valuable and important asset like 563 deteriorate so badly or even get scrapped of all things...

I'd argue actually (and no doubt I will receive much opposition to this view) that for the sake of securing an engine such as 563 a prosperous and bright future, transferring full ownership to such a railway as the SR, instead of on a long term loan basis, is a much more beneficial option. The reason I make this argument is the simple fact that most if not all Heritage Railways gain the most attention and business from having operational steam engines, not static ones, which is why many such establishments tend not to pursue having an engine from the NRM, because while undeniably attractive their historic and unique value may be, they're full potential can never be truly utilised due to all the rules that come with having a engine from the national collection. Thanks to all this "protecting the original material of the locomotive" business, most locomotives loaned from the NRM have to be given patch up jobs as I call it (if they can, some aren't so lucky. i.e. Green Arrow), and as a result they tend to be unable to their fullest abilities, nor have as long a time being operational before their taken back to be stuffed and mounted, gathering dust and unloved. For no engine on static display can ever quite receive as much love or attention as a operational one.

By transferring the ownership of the locomotive however, all these rules and hindrances can be tossed aside, the railway owning such an engine can give it the proper restoration to highest standards it deserves, replacing parts where need be. This gives them a more reliable and dependable engine, as well as give said railway a boost in profile due to having such a unique and historic engine amongst their fleet, and makes it rather more enticing an engine to give money to when money has to be raised for it's ongoing maintenance and the like. It's a win-win all round really.

Finally, for the issue of storage, getting proper undercover storage for their rolling stock has been on the agenda at the Swanage Railway for sometime now. Having 563 under their care now, as others have suggested, should give both them and potential grant bodies an extra incentive to spearhead such a project for undercover storage facilities, certainly with such important historical items as the T3.

I realise many will have differing opinions and objections to such a perspective and ideas I have put forward here, but I honest believe this is only a good outcome to occur for 563's future. Some will say it's less secure, I say it's actually more secure from a certain point of view. I am not saying however that EVERY locomotive the NRM has should be transferred to a heritage railway, for not all would find homes and it's just not realistic nor right to do the same treatment to all.

With locomotives like 563 however, there's an argument to be had that this is the best outcome for them, for where it is now, it'll be viewed as the flagship and crown jewel of the railway, drawing a good many who’ve come just to see it in action.
Where as if it back at the NRM as it was before... merely another overlooked Victorian engine amongst a large number of other engines that'll always get the limelight, unused and all but forgotten.

 

If the Clapham transport museum had been kept open where 563 was originally the National railway museum would not be in this situation it now finds itself, when the Clapham museum closed there was a poster at the entrance explaining why, as far as I can remember it said Clapham and Swindon museums will be closed to centralise the exhibits at a central site being York. But Swindon never closed and the rest is history.

 

There is a lot of sence in that, in my view , when Ashford works site closed, there were two large buildings that in my view would have made an very good NRM of the south, where some exibits could have been transfered to, Ashford works was an important part of the story of how railways in the south came about, Eastleigh, also, but that option was lost when the works became busy again, the truth is that The national collection is just to large for every item to be displayed, and since clapham, there has been no where in the south this side of Swindon where there is any suitable locations now to open up new sites, rather than give away items, the Government's department of museums should be looking at sites such as Ashford, so it can offer options,
For me Ashford offers some very good advantages, its a major town, so families can do more than just visit a museum, there are options for limited mainline steam, around the south coast, based on the Ashford canterbury folkestone Ashford circle, potensial runs to Dungerness, using the hastings diesel unit, privately owned SR engines that are out of ticket, could be displayed freeing up siding space, if such a location were availible, there would be no need to gift engines away, or any other piece of rolling stock,
As regards the T3, I am sure she will be cared for if anything, she will have a more exciting future than it would have had, i just wish the NRM didnt have to had gifted it away . but now she has a real chance of an active future, something that was out of the question, if the NRM, are not now even going to allow 6229 to be returned to steam, then the only way in future any NRM loco may have will be in private hands, or as part of a partnership deal.

 

Firstly, congratulations on a well-reasoned posting. I might not agree 100% with your conclusions, but it's good to read your thoughts.

My main area of disagreement is in your implication that there is no risk involved in handing over this loco to the Swanage Railway. I would agree that they are a mature organisation, and they fully appreciate the value of No 563 (which the NRM doesn't). However, none of us can see the future with any clarity, and there is no guarantee of the Swanage Railway's continued prosperity, or that their priorities will remain unchanged in the decades to come. Retaining ownership of the loco within the National Collection would have provided an additional safeguard, whilst still allowing Swanage to display and/or operate the loco as they see fit.

 

This is a very good point, what if in the future the Swanage line moves it's direction and becomes more of a Dartmouth line sort of operation where it's basically a commercial operation instead of a straight up preserved line? . If it then just becomes a asset of a PLC I can't see many being happy then, unless the agreement has restrictions in it, as I've said a long term lease to the line is absolutely fine but giving it away free, no no no

 

Err except it's been given to a charity and if that charity does not have a adequate policy for "disposal" of heritage items then it's not doing its job right, nor is the NRM for not checking that such a policy exists. The one charity I was involved in couldn't just simply give away any such asset to a PLC - I wouldn't expect this one to be any different.

 

This might well be true, but we aren't privy to the details of the arrangement. We don't know if there are any safeguards built in. And anyway, being a charity doesn't protect the Swanage Railway against hard times, or a volunteer crisis. Most of us just want assurances that the loco's future is assured, and that it won't be neglected or abused in a distant future.

 

Perhaps you could like ask ? - but you do appear to lack knowledge of how a charity works.

 

I do, but I'm happy to be enlightened.